Have you all sent back the EU brochure yet?

[Hope]

Everything I hear about the free movement of E U citizens, doesn't indicate that it will be droped, anytime soon whatever we suggest, well that's fine for them as far as I'm concerned good luck to them, just don't take us here in the U K along with you.

Having control of our own borders will amke no difference to the number of people trying to enter via Calais and Dunkirk illegally, ippy; while getting rid of the EU citizens will probably see the tax-take drop dramatically as the vast majority of those immigrants work and pay tax - even if at a low level.  Furthermore, we will end up with vital jobs which British people have shunned/refused to do being left undone - such as fruit and veg picking.  Will contolling our own bordewrs solve the gang-master abuses that we've seen so much in recent years.  I doubt it.  So, perhaps you can illustrate the benefits you see.

I don't suppose that brochure is any more or any less biased than any other, it's against the spirit of fair play, had they spent equal amounts on two brochures one for and one against we would be discussing the facts, rather than more of how those underhanded tory bastards have reverted to type.

Have to say that I've seen a considerable number of thin brochures (as opposed to leaflets) produced by UKIP and the like over the last year or two, explaining their arguments.  I suspect that they probably cost well over £9million - even if it was private money.

[Hope]

Democracy isn't binary, IMO the UK is more democratic than the EU.

As I understand it, legislative bills are created by EU bureaucrats in Europe, in the same way that they are produced by UK bureaucrats here in the UK.  In both cases, the two parliaments will be given more or less time to debate such bills and then asked to vote on them.  What's the difference?  The fact that Europe is catering for a far larger number of peple, and probably a far broader range of ideas, doesn't mean that it is necessarily less democratic than the UK.  The UK parliamentary system allows for a surprising amount of non-democratic decision-making.

A trade agreement between say the US negotiated by the EU, TTIP, and the UK negotiating its own agreement with the US even you can understand is not the same?

TTIP would never be negotiated with a single nation, j.  It happens to be one of the things I believe will be highly damaging to both the UK and Europe - and would have been quite happy to have seen us opt out of it.

[jeremyp]

I think we can and this is something we will never agree about.

No we can't. The UK is solidly anchored 25 miles from France. We can leave the EU but the EU is not Europe.

[jeremyp]

All policies that applied to Britain would be made in Britain, or devolved to more local governments.

So the most important thing is where the seat of government is located in geographical terms. This sounds a little bit like nationalism to me.

In point of fact, what matters is how we choose the decision makers not where they convene. Our system is loosely described as democratic but it's a poor democracy that allows the head honchos of the national church (of one part of the country) to have permanent seats in government.

[jakswan]

So the most important thing is where the seat of government is located in geographical terms. This sounds a little bit like nationalism to me.

So?

In point of fact, what matters is how we choose the decision makers not where they convene. Our system is loosely described as democratic but it's a poor democracy that allows the head honchos of the national church (of one part of the country) to have permanent seats in government.

Poor maybe, the EU is poorer.

Do the remain have any positive arguments we've had a lot of 'yes its shit but it will be scary if we leave' and fluff like 'unity at higher levels'.

[ippy]

Having control of our own borders will make no difference to the number of people trying to enter via Calais and Dunkirk illegally, ippy; while getting rid of the EU citizens will probably see the tax-take drop dramatically as the vast majority of those immigrants work and pay tax - even if at a low level.  Furthermore, we will end up with vital jobs which British people have shunned/refused to do being left undone - such as fruit and veg picking.  Will controlling our own borders solve the gang-master abuses that we've seen so much in recent years.  I doubt it.  So, perhaps you can illustrate the benefits you see.
Have to say that I've seen a considerable number of thin brochures (as opposed to leaflets) produced by UKIP and the like over the last year or two, explaining their arguments.  I suspect that they probably cost well over £9million - even if it was private money.

 
Couldn't disagree with you more on all points, I wont be altering my view.

The UKIP brochures weren't financed by the UK government, yours and my money. 

ippy

[Hope]

Couldn't disagree with you more on all points, I wont be altering my view.

That's what you're entitled to do, ippy

The UKIP brochures weren't financed by the UK government ..

Thanks for confirming what I wrote.

[Stranger]

...This sounds a little bit like nationalism to me.

So?

The stench nationalism is what I find so distasteful about the leave campaign; it's all (as you said before) "British Government should have more control of British borders, British economy, British trade agreements, British laws".

Why British?

Nationalism: a stone's throw from xenophobia and a short stroll from racism.

Poor maybe, the EU is poorer.

In what way is the EU a poorer democracy? Given the failings of UK democracy, I think leaving the EU would make things worse.

Having said that, I really can't see this in terms of the practicalities; the economy, democracy, immigration; they are all debatable.

The important thing, for me, is whether we are isolationist or inclusive. Encouraging people to identify with larger groups and opposing parochial and nationalistic thinking are aims worth pursuing for their own sake.

[floo]

So?


The stench nationalism is what I find so distasteful about the leave campaign; it's all (as you said before) "British Government should have more control of British borders, British economy, British trade agreements, British laws".

Why British?

Nationalism: a stone's throw from xenophobia and a short stroll from racism.

In what way is the EU a poorer democracy? Given the failings of UK democracy, I think leaving the EU would make things worse.

Having said that, I really can't see this in terms of the practicalities; the economy, democracy, immigration; they are all debatable.

The important thing, for me, is whether we are isolationist or inclusive. Encouraging people to identify with larger groups and opposing parochial and nationalistic thinking are aims worth pursuing for their own sake.

A good post.

[L.A.]

So?


The stench nationalism is what I find so distasteful about the leave campaign; it's all (as you said before) "British Government should have more control of British borders, British economy, British trade agreements, British laws".

Why British?

Nationalism: a stone's throw from xenophobia and a short stroll from racism.

In what way is the EU a poorer democracy? Given the failings of UK democracy, I think leaving the EU would make things worse.

Having said that, I really can't see this in terms of the practicalities; the economy, democracy, immigration; they are all debatable.

The important thing, for me, is whether we are isolationist or inclusive. Encouraging people to identify with larger groups and opposing parochial and nationalistic thinking are aims worth pursuing for their own sake.

It's the Little Englanders who peddle the fantasy that we can once again relive the glory days of Empire, when the reality is that even the modern-day superpowers need seek trading partnerships.

[jakswan]

So?


The stench nationalism is what I find so distasteful about the leave campaign; it's all (as you said before) "British Government should have more control of British borders, British economy, British trade agreements, British laws".

Why British?

Nationalism: a stone's throw from xenophobia and a short stroll from racism.

Ahh more hysterical rhetoric, you are for regional / national governments stop being a hypocrit and come up with something more than spouting rubbish.

In what way is the EU a poorer democracy? Given the failings of UK democracy, I think leaving the EU would make things worse.

So you honestly think the EU is more democratic then the UK?

Having said that, I really can't see this in terms of the practicalities; the economy, democracy, immigration; they are all debatable.

The important thing, for me, is whether we are isolationist or inclusive. Encouraging people to identify with larger groups and opposing parochial and nationalistic thinking are aims worth pursuing for their own sake.

So in other words you can't offer an coherent practical argument its just you hate Britain and love the EU.

The EURO is a united currency but can't even claim to support that let alone start defending it.

[jakswan]

It's the Little Englanders who peddle the fantasy that we can once again relive the glory days of Empire, when the reality is that even the modern-day superpowers need seek trading partnerships.

Ahh the hard left who live in a fantasy world who dream up pretend arguments that are made by those they disagree, I've not heard one remain campaigner claim they did not want trading partnerships.

[L.A.]

Ahh the hard left who live in a fantasy world who dream up pretend arguments that are made by those they disagree, I've not heard one remain campaigner claim they did not want trading partnerships.

  That's a first ! . . . it's a very long time since anyone accused me of being Left-wing, let alone 'Hard Left'. I'm usually accused of being on the other end of the political spectrum.

Yes, I acknowledge that the BREXITors would seek trading agreements with the rest of the world. The fantasy is in believing that a small country can somehow negotiation better deals than the worlds largest trading block.

[jakswan]

Yes, I acknowledge that the BREXITors would seek trading agreements with the rest of the world. The fantasy is in believing that a small country can somehow negotiation better deals than the worlds largest trading block.

The country with the fifth largest economy in the world isn't small.

[L.A.]

The country with the fifth largest economy in the world isn't small.

I think that is slightly misleading, our economy is about a sixth the size of the US or the EU as a whole. On our own we don't have much economic muscle to negotiate with the 'big boys' and with the world economic slow-down, there is always the spectre of protectionism lurking.

The world could become a very tough place for a small country without friends.

[Udayana]

The country with the fifth largest economy in the world isn't small.

Depends how you look at it.

How would the UK do in negotiating an alternative to ttip with the USA? I'd expect the USA to walk right over us - nearly all the objectionable parts in ttip are actually supported by the UK - though we might not be told that.

Similarly with China - it seems to be the UK that prevented tariffs being imposed against dumping of steel by China - although all the hand-wringing here has been about the EU preventing UK measures.   

With India, we have a long history and a mostly free hand, but have got nowhere.

[jakswan]

I think that is slightly misleading, our economy is about a sixth the size of the US or the EU as a whole. On our own we don't have much economic muscle to negotiate with the 'big boys' and with the world economic slow-down, there is always the spectre of protectionism lurking.

The world could become a very tough place for a small country without friends.

German car makers and French farmers will not be very welcoming if Britain decided to impose tariffs on their products. We are not a small country economically, being able to negotiate trade agreements is going to be easier since it will not need the approval of all EU states to proceed.

[jakswan]

Depends how you look at it.

How would the UK do in negotiating an alternative to ttip with the USA? I'd expect the USA to walk right over us - nearly all the objectionable parts in ttip are actually supported by the UK - though we might not be told that.

So in any negotiation the bigger party dictates the terms, utter nonsense.

Similarly with China - it seems to be the UK that prevented tariffs being imposed against dumping of steel by China - although all the hand-wringing here has been about the EU preventing UK measures.   

With India, we have a long history and a mostly free hand, but have got nowhere.

The EU has been trying to do a deal with India for years.

Our trade with India has grown over several years.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34767180

[Stranger]

Ahh more hysterical rhetoric, you are for regional / national governments stop being a hypocrit and come up with something more than spouting rubbish.

You didn't answer my question. I'll add another: in what way do you think I'm being hypocritical?

So you honestly think the EU is more democratic then the UK?

Again, you didn't answer my question. I'll answer yours: I think it's a close call. Ideally both should be reformed but given the way they are, I think both is probably better than just the UK.

So in other words you can't offer an coherent practical argument its just you hate Britain and love the EU.

I neither love nor hate either (and find your language significant). I think it's excessive affection for, and identification with, the UK that is the problem with the leavers. I'd rather people identified with other groupings as well; both more local and more international. We shouldn't divide the world into us good ol' British and them Johnny Foreigners...

[L.A.]

German car makers and French farmers will not be very welcoming if Britain decided to impose tariffs on their products. We are not a small country economically, being able to negotiate trade agreements is going to be easier since it will not need the approval of all EU states to proceed.

And that demonstrates the dilemma perfectly. Of course the UK market is important to many countries and the EU provides a good framework for free trade with our partners.

However, a trade deal works two ways. If markets are to be open and without tariffs there needs to be protection against 'dumping' - and that means rules . . . the kind of tedious rules that the BREXITors constantly accuse Brussels of forcing on us.

In the event that we leave the EU, the best we could hope for would be a rough approximation to what we have already - and we would still have to follow the rules! We would still need to enshrine EU laws in our legal system - but we wouldn't have any input in framing those laws.

The EU is currently moving towards a trade deal with the USA (Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) In economic terms this would be a deal between equals. If Britain attempted to make such a deal alone it would not be between equals, America would be calling the shots. Brussels would seem a very benign place compared to Washington.

[jakswan]

You didn't answer my question. I'll add another: in what way do you think I'm being hypocritical?

Didn't see you asked a question. You claim you want unity but want to divide governments locally and nationally.

Again, you didn't answer my question. I'll answer yours: I think it's a close call. Ideally both should be reformed but given the way they are, I think both is probably better than just the UK.

Already answered that question. I think differently.

I neither love nor hate either (and find your language significant). I think it's excessive affection for, and identification with, the UK that is the problem with the leavers. I'd rather people identified with other groupings as well; both more local and more international. We shouldn't divide the world into us good ol' British and them Johnny Foreigners...

I'm not dividing the world into 'good ol' British and them Johnny Foreigners', just advocating for a government based on its economy, culture, size, history.

A reformed democratic EU containing UK, Germany, France, Denmark, & other countries with economies of the same stage of development I think would be fine.

[jakswan]

And that demonstrates the dilemma perfectly. Of course the UK market is important to many countries and the EU provides a good framework for free trade with our partners.

A free trade agreement can continue.

However, a trade deal works two ways. If markets are to be open and without tariffs there needs to be protection against 'dumping' - and that means rules . . . the kind of tedious rules that the BREXITors constantly accuse Brussels of forcing on us.

I don't think the rules are tedious, many of those rules are set by the WTO, the Uk can have its seat back when we leave.

In the event that we leave the EU, the best we could hope for would be a rough approximation to what we have already - and we would still have to follow the rules! We would still need to enshrine EU laws in our legal system - but we wouldn't have any input in framing those laws.

Such as?

The EU is currently moving towards a trade deal with the USA (Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) In economic terms this would be a deal between equals. If Britain attempted to make such a deal alone it would not be between equals, America would be calling the shots. Brussels would seem a very benign place compared to Washington.

Again the idea that in any negotiation the bigger party dictates the terms is utter nonsense.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Brexit money for NHS my arse.......it will go to farmers.
Cut migration after Brexit my arse all that is promise is that ''control'' goes to Westminster. Expect even cheaper labour.
''We'' my arse....as usual ''they'' will have control.

[L.A.]

A free trade agreement can continue.

It won't just automatically continue beyond two years, it will have to be re-negotiated and if we are lucky it will be similar to our current deal - but it will have strings attached.

I don't think the rules are tedious, many of those rules are set by the WTO, the Uk can have its seat back when we leave.

A large amount of it is technical stuff about product standards - not the kind of material that interests most people, though for some reason it enrages UKIP.

Such as?

Norway and Switzerland have to comply to a large amount of EU law in order to trade, there is no reason to believe that any deal we got would be significantly different.

Again the idea that in any negotiation the bigger party dictates the terms is utter nonsense.

I think that is a very naive view - in any negotiation power counts.

[Hope]

Was talking to folk at church this morning - no-one has had it.  Was it only for England?