MPs and tax returns

[Hope]

In my last post for this morning - at which level of Government should the publishing of tax-returns stop?  After all, what do they really tell us about someone's wealth or poverty?

[floo]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36020610

I was gobsmacked by William Hague's comments, which implied that just because your tax affairs didn't bear scrutiny it wouldn't make you a bad politician!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wonder if he had published his yet?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Floo,

Yes it is all a bit, kind of Del boyish, tax evasion/avoidance is okay as long as you don't get caught, a bit like stealing a pen from your employer, well that's okay it is just a pen, everybody does it.

Cameron defending his Dad, well that's nice but he did avoid paying tax, that jars, I want to avoid paying tax but if every ordinary joe in the country avoided paying their taxes the government would be asking questions.

It all stinks, time for a little anarchy, I am going to stop smoking and drinking, two less things that they can tax my ass on, that will teach em!!

Gonnagle.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Floo,

I never caught this one yesterday

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36017171

Dodgy Dave, I now have visions of Cameron flogging his wares outside the House of Commons from an old battered suitcase.

Gonnagle.

[Brownie]

I'm sure they all pay a lot of tax, they wouldn't get away with not doing so.  If any have found a way (or their accountants have) of not paying anything extortionate on additional income, it doesn't bother me.  Most of us would do the same if we had it.  The way people are carrying on anyone would think these people pay nothing and they obviously do, probably more than most of us.  Politicians do not receive large salaries.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Brownie,

Most of us would do the same if we had it.

Is that the crux of the matter, am I just jealous?

Politicians do not receive large salaries.

Really!! I think they earn about four times what a nurse earns, nurses do not have subsidised canteen, nurses do not have expense accounts and if I remember rightly there was a big fuss about their recent pay rise.

Gonnagle.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

Dear Brownie,

Is that the crux of the matter, am I just jealous?

Really!! I think they earn about four times what a nurse earns, nurses do not have subsidised canteen, nurses do not have expense accounts and if I remember rightly there was a big fuss about their recent pay rise.

Gonnagle.

Hi,

Yes maybe a bit of jealousy perhaps. I wouldn't mind paying Wayne Rooney's tax bill if I could have his salary!

I think we all do take measures to minimise our tax liabilities don't we? Things like ISA's are available and I certainly use them. Why not?

Regarding the salary point, I don't think that the PM has a high wage considering his responsibilities. If you compare it to the salary of a CEO of a large company then the PM would earn a fraction of it, maybe 1/10th (Not that I am saying that the CEO justifies their salary).

[Brownie]

Dear Brownie,

Is that the crux of the matter, am I just jealous?

Really!! I think they earn about four times what a nurse earns, nurses do not have subsidised canteen, nurses do not have expense accounts and if I remember rightly there was a big fuss about their recent pay rise.

Gonnagle.

I do believe some resent those better off financially, never understood it because, however much you have there will always be someone with more.   

No-one has to be a nurse Gonnagle, they make a choice to train and do a job that that fulfills them.  There are some very well paid nursing jobs depending on the individual's skill and experience and lots of nurses end up quite comfortable.  Not the same as someone who makes a lot of money in the City and invests but not everyone wants to do that (I wouldn't), it's extremely stressful.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Brownie and Stephen,

Well it could just be jealousy but maybe resentment is in there to, the man or men whose job it is to protect, to ensure a fair society taking advantage of a dodgy tax system, myself personally, I am totally against someone paying a higher tax rate simply because they earn more, you earn a quid you pay the tax on that quid.

Well maybe I should add to my list of failings, jealousy, resentful and naive.

As for politicians wages, well I think the PM gets a get out of jail free card, he is the guy at the top, the one supposedly making the big decision, so he deserves a high salary ( although running around defending his tax dodging Daddy should not be in his remit ).

But ordinary politicians, the reason I use nurses, I see what Brownie is hinting at, nurses and politicians are not career moves, they are vocations, there to serve, politicians are paid OTT, if I saw other vocations being paid the same as politicians I might change my mind, nurses deal with life and death everyday, teachers are responsible for our future, politicians, well there are the odd one or two who make a difference, and for me the odd one or two are the ones telling the rest they are overpaid.

Gonnagle.

[Brownie]

Well those who do earn a lot more than the average, and probably even more than that, eg charging large fees for services etc, have usually worked very hard towards it, studying, taking risks and maybe going through bad times on the way.

If any of us were prepared to do that and had the ability to do it, we would want to reap financially if not for ourselves then to benefit our families.

Most of us aren't in that category but if we are happy in our work and have a reasonable pension when we retire we can consider ourselves to be relatively prosperous  - it's all relative.  The more you have the more you must worry I would think, having money is a great responsibility.

Being under public scrutiny must be horrible, I'd rather be me with my semi and modest pension (which is taxed at source) than have everyone making comments about me and mine.  Health too, that's more important than anything.  I'm happy for others to have more materially, doesn't affect me.

[Hope]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36020610

I was gobsmacked by William Hague's comments, which implied that just because your tax affairs didn't bear scrutiny it wouldn't make you a bad politician!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wonder if he had published his yet?

Two of Britain's best PMs were absolutely hopeless at sorting their private finances, Floo.  At the same time, being a brilliant private finance guru doesn't necessarily make you a good politician or PM.  After all, the first peeron to be 'caught out' by all this was actually Jeremy Corbyn who, it appears, submitted his tax return for 2014/15 5 days late!!

[Hope]

I'm sure they all pay a lot of tax, they wouldn't get away with not doing so.  If any have found a way (or their accountants have) of not paying anything extortionate on additional income, it doesn't bother me.  Most of us would do the same if we had it.  The way people are carrying on anyone would think these people pay nothing and they obviously do, probably more than most of us.  Politicians do not receive large salaries.

Boris has - according to this morning's Metro, paid a little under a £million in tax over the last 4 years.  I wonder whether Gonners would be able to do that 

[Hope]

Really!! I think they earn about four times what a nurse earns, ...

But less than a bank manager does, or even a headteacher of a big school.  They get much less than a consultant doctor. 

... and if I remember rightly there was a big fuss about their recent pay rise.

Oddly enough, the first to complain were MPs tyhemselves, many refusing to accept the rise which, of course, had been proposed by an independent body.  Its worth remembering that all MPs employ their own secretary and researcher (in some case, may share them) - so are liable for their income, employers' NI contributions, etc.  Not sure that this applies to MSPs and AMs, so I'm not sure who pays their staff wages.

[Brownie]

I think MPs receive less in salary than GPs, Hope.  They are not well paid for all the responsibility they have.

What William Hague said seems quite reasonable to me, floo.  What did you find wrong with it?

Big firms that manage to avoid paying corporation tax but trade in the UK are those whom the government should go after, changing the rules so that they pay a fair whack (also ensuring they don't move their companies elsewhere because they generate income too), not go after individuals.  It's turning into a witch hunt.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

But less than a bank manager does, or even a headteacher of a big school.  They get much less than a consultant doctor. 
Oddly enough, the first to complain were MPs tyhemselves, many refusing to accept the rise which, of course, had been proposed by an independent body.  Its worth remembering that all MPs employ their own secretary and researcher (in some case, may share them) - so are liable for their income, employers' NI contributions, etc.  Not sure that this applies to MSPs and AMs, so I'm not sure who pays their staff wages.

I hope you are sitting down.

Get ready.....

I agree with you!

[Hope]

Big firms that manage to avoid paying corporation tax but trade in the UK are those whom the government should go after, changing the rules so that they pay a fair whack (also ensuring they don't move their companies elsewhere because they generate income too), not go after individuals.  It's turning into a witch hunt.

I think the important figure is how much money a company makes in any given country.  If the Government could nail that down - and they have been trying - the tax-take from that would far outweigh what is mentioned regarding individual avoiders as outlined by that aspect of the Panama Papers.  That's notr to say that HMRC oughtn't to be chasing the latter, just that I think the Panama Papers story is a by-way in the bigger picture.

[Brownie]

Yes I agree with you.

[dadvokat]

Not interested in my neighbours tax returns. Politics of envy?

[Brownie]

Yes indeed dadvokat.

[floo]

I think MPs receive less in salary than GPs, Hope.  They are not well paid for all the responsibility they have.

What William Hague said seems quite reasonable to me, floo.  What did you find wrong with it?

Big firms that manage to avoid paying corporation tax but trade in the UK are those whom the government should go after, changing the rules so that they pay a fair whack (also ensuring they don't move their companies elsewhere because they generate income too), not go after individuals.  It's turning into a witch hunt.

I thought Hague was implying that even if a person's tax affairs were dodgy that didn't make them a bad politician. I wouldn't vote for anyone whom I knew was dishonest.

[Hope]

I thought Hague was implying that even if a person's tax affairs were dodgy that didn't make them a bad politician. I wouldn't vote for anyone whom I knew was dishonest.

I got the impression that he was saying that Pitt and Churchill were not good at producing accounts, as it were - not that their finances were dodgy: despite this, they were excellent MPs and PMs. 

[Hope]

As for politicians wages, well I think the PM gets a get out of jail free card, he is the guy at the top, the one supposedly making the big decision, so he deserves a high salary ( although running around defending his tax dodging Daddy should not be in his remit ).

IIRC, each of the last 4 PMs have actually agreed not to take their full salary.  Apparently it is made up of 2 parts - the parliamentary (MP) element, which is £74,963 and the ministerial (PM) element - £68,500 from April 2016, and it is this latter element that they have not taken in full.

Just googled consultant doctors' annual income and the NHS say that consultants " can earn a basic salary of between £75,249 and £101,451 per year, dependent on years of seniority in the consultant grade (my emphasis)".  You then get on-call supplements, local weighting supplements (apparently an extra 5 per cent of basic salary "subject to a minimum payment of £951 and a maximum payment of £1,649" for those in London), etc.

But ordinary politicians, the reason I use nurses, I see what Brownie is hinting at, nurses and politicians are not career moves, they are vocations, there to serve, politicians are paid OTT, if I saw other vocations being paid the same as politicians I might change my mind, nurses deal with life and death everyday, teachers are responsible for our future, politicians, well there are the odd one or two who make a difference, and for me the odd one or two are the ones telling the rest they are overpaid.

Gonners, while I accept that nurses and others may have to pay for childcare and other such provision (something that MPs will probably have to pay for as well), nurses and others don't have to pay salaries to staff, in the same way that MPs do.  That is partly why the MP salary rate jumped so much a few years ago - they became responsible for the paying of their parliamentary staff, whereas beforehand, that cost was borne by the MP through the expenses system (at least that is how I understand the old arrangement, but am willing to be corrected).

[Nearly Sane]

MPs still pay staff out of expenses

[Hope]

MPs still pay staff out of expenses

OK, NS - I am mistaken.  Did the IPSA create new rulkes as to how thoise staff expenses were to be handeled?  I'm sure that back in 2011 or 12 there was a big thing about MPs becoming more responsible for their staff.

Dear me, my spelling has gone all to pot!!  14.10 hours

[Gonnagle]

Dear Dodgy Dave,

Lets see if I can unravel this tangled web.

1. The bigger picture, we are trying to ensure that the big companies pay their fair share of taxes, what the big companies are doing is not illegal, they are just avoiding paying their fair share of tax. yes/no?

2. What the little man is doing, example, Mr Cameron's Daddy is trying to avoid paying his fair share of taxes, what the little man is doing is not illegal, they are just avoiding paying their fair share of tax. yes/no?

3. If the little man, example, a politician, is avoiding paying their fair share of taxes but at the same time is asking the big companies to pay their fair share of taxes, it seems a tad hypocritical. yes/no?

4. A question, are the little men using the same loop holes as the big companies to avoid paying their fair share of taxes?

Some smaller points.

My chip on the shoulder regarding politicians wages, I think my problem is that I can justify a consultant Doctors wages, he/she has studied hard, endured long hours and there is a end product, the patient, hopefully through the skill and knowledge of the Doctor is cured.

The politician, all I see is them acting like school children in the House of Commons, yes there has been the odd time where I have witnessed some very intelligent and civilised debate, the odd time, the very odd time.

The Head School Teacher ( please note that I capitalise Professions such as Doctor and Teacher ) every school morning parents/guardians place our future in the hands of Head School Teachers/Teachers, in the hope that these Teachers will educate our future generations to be smarter more intelligent, better citizens than we were.

What I see politicians doing, is messing around with our education system, state school, faith school, academies, politicians play around with our future generations.

BTW, Teachers do not get paid nearly enough for the task we ask them to do, nor should we be playing about with pounds and pence in ensuring we have the best education for our future.

To end my little rantette, I do not want anyone to pay higher taxes, all I am looking for is that everyone, everyone pays their fair share of taxes.

Gonnagle.