The American War for Independance . . .

[Owlswing]

Looking at the possible next President of the U S gave me pause for thought:

What would America and, by extrapolation, the world, be like now if the Colonists had lost the American War for Independance?

[L.A.]

We would all be under the yoke of Soviet Communism.

[Owlswing]

We would all be under the yoke of Soviet Communism.

Why so?

[L.A.]

Why so?

OK, (always nice to have a 'what if' scenario)

A British controlled North America would certainly have brought wealth back home, so the British Empire would have thrived, at least for a while, but the wealth would not have been spread evenly worsening social division. However, without the 'Open Door' policy to boost the population, America would never have achieved anything like the economic dominance it has today.

Also, without the massive intake of European migrants, many of Europe's social problems would have worsened - the perfect  breading ground for Communism..

My guess is that social unrest would have weakened all European countries, including Britain to the extent that WW1 would not have happened or fizzled-out quite early, leaving an emerging Soviet Russia to take over.

[Owlswing]

OK, (always nice to have a 'what if' scenario)

A British controlled North America would certainly have brought wealth back home, so the British Empire would have thrived, at least for a while, but the wealth would not have been spread evenly worsening social division. However, without the 'Open Door' policy to boost the population, America would never have achieved anything like the economic dominance it has today.

Also, without the massive intake of European migrants, many of Europe's social problems would have worsened - the perfect  breading ground for Communism..

My guess is that social unrest would have weakened all European countries, including Britain to the extent that WW1 would not have happened or fizzled-out quite early, leaving an emerging Soviet Russia to take over.

Not being a particularly political animal I cannot disagree with your assessment, but I was thinking that if the colonists had lost the most likely scenario would have been a period of relative peace and quiet, say three or four years, followed by a re-match that the colonists would, having learned from their defeat, probably have won.

[L.A.]

Not being a particularly political animal I cannot disagree with your assessment, but I was thinking that if the colonists had lost the most likely scenario would have been a period of relative peace and quiet, say three or four years, followed by a re-match that the colonists would, having learned from their defeat, probably have won.

I think you are right in principle, but I think the British government would have 'Locked Down' the colony to prevent any further trouble. Possibly it would have become a penal colony instead of Australia, it fact it's story might have been very similar to the real history of Austrailia.

Who knows what would have happened to Van Diemen's Land

[jeremyp]

OK, (always nice to have a 'what if' scenario)

A British controlled North America would certainly have brought wealth back home, so the British Empire would have thrived, at least for a while, but the wealth would not have been spread evenly worsening social division. However, without the 'Open Door' policy to boost the population, America would never have achieved anything like the economic dominance it has today.

I disagree. I think the British Empire would still exist but its centre would be in North America. It would dominate the World.

The British Empire no longer exists largely because of the crippling cost of the First World War. Why did it cost us so much money? Because we had to buy material and we needed enormous loans to pay for the war effort. Who did we get the material and the loans from? It was the USA. The First World War caused an enormous shift of wealth from Europe to the USA which did very well out of the war.

Had the USA still been a British colony in 1914, the war would have been over in 1915. There would have been no Russian revolution, or at least, the communists probably wouldn't have won it. There would have been no fascist takeover and therefore no World War 2.

My guess is that social unrest would have weakened all European countries, including Britain to the extent that WW1 would not have happened or fizzled-out quite early, leaving an emerging Soviet Russia to take over.

Do you understand that Soviet Russia exists as a direct consequence of WW1? Do you know that Lenin only got to Russia in 1917 with direct help from Germany?

[SqueakyVoice]

It seems we've skipped from the 18th century to the 20th. British Empire would have had to fight the Napoleonic wars with significant troup numbers stationed in north America well before anyone got round to worrying about the Germans.

[L.A.]

I disagree. I think the British Empire would still exist but its centre would be in North America. It would dominate the World.

No, I don't think that would have happened. Bureaucrats ran the British empire from London. There would haver been penal colonies and they would have allowed controlled settlement with the profits returning to Britain. Possibly prisoners would have been used as labour in the cotton fields instead of slaves.

The British Empire no longer exists largely because of the crippling cost of the First World War. Why did it cost us so much money? Because we had to buy material and we needed enormous loans to pay for the war effort. Who did we get the material and the loans from? It was the USA. The First World War caused an enormous shift of wealth from Europe to the USA which did very well out of the war.

Had Britain been running America, it would not have been a wealthy industrialised country so that situation would not have arisen.

Had the USA still been a British colony in 1914, the war would have been over in 1915. There would have been no Russian revolution, or at least, the communists probably wouldn't have won it. There would have been no fascist takeover and therefore no World War 2.

I don't think it would be so simple. Britain would probably have been stronger and richer, Germany, I suspect weaker and  more chaotic, so maybe the war wouldn't have happened.

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" was the famous line from the poet Emma Lazarus - and it reflected the Open Door policy that the USA had since about the middle of the 19th century. They took millions of migrants from many European countries, and this might be considered as a 'safety valve' for European countries. Without the option of emigration these people would have been very receptive to the idea of revolution in their home countries.

Do you understand that Soviet Russia exists as a direct consequence of WW1? Do you know that Lenin only got to Russia in 1917 with direct help from Germany?

Yes of course, but Germany didn't create Lenin and indeed, Lenin didn't create Communism. Conditions were right in Russia for revolution and (in the real world) Lenin was the one who started the revolution, but in our imaginary scenario social social pressures would have been even greater and revolution might even have started in Germany.

[L.A.]

It seems we've skipped from the 18th century to the 20th. British Empire would have had to fight the Napoleonic wars with significant troup numbers stationed in north America well before anyone got round to worrying about the Germans.

Yes indeed, the French could be the fly in the ointment.

I can only say that with a Strong British military presence in the Americas, all French American colonies would be defunct - so no income. Possibly Britain might be militarily over-stretched, but taxes and goods from our North American colony would mean a strong British economy, and if you are rich enough you can raise an army.

[L.A.]

However, on reflection it wouldn't necessarily affect the final outcome if the French had (for example) won the Battle of Trafalgar.

Britain signs a peace treaty with the Emperor and an restores some French territories, Napoleon tightens his grip over Europe and uneasy peace is established - meanwhile Marx ponders the ideas that will become Das Kapital - and the workers of the world become increasingly less happy.