Author Topic: What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?  (Read 7766 times)

Bubbles

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What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?
« on: July 04, 2016, 09:31:30 AM »
Perhaps you know.

Why did Michael Gove stab Boris Johnson in the back because he put himself forward for leadership? ( newspapers)

Ok I can see Boris wouldn't be supported by him, but why did Boris then stop his bid for leadership?

Couldn't they both have run for it?

I keep thinking I've missed something because the papers keep on about Michael Gove's treachery and I'm not totally sure why it caused Boris to resign his bid.


Perhaps someone here can explain it.

Because I've asked people around me, and actually they don't really know either.

So what has Michael Gove actually done, that is so awful?

The papers are strong in condemnation but don't explain.

Everyone seems against him, but no one seems to be able to explain it rationally when pushed.

I would have thought any MP who thought he could do the job would be entitled to put himself forward.

I don't get it.


« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 09:34:59 AM by Rose »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2016, 09:34:57 AM »
Perhaps you know.

Why did Michael Gove stab Boris Johnson in the back because he put himself forward for leadership?

Ok I can see Boris wouldn't be supported by him, but why did Boris then stop his bid for leadership?

Couldn't they both have run for it?

I keep thinking I've missed something because the papers keep on about Michael Gove's treachery and I'm not totally sure why it caused Boris to resign his bid.


Perhaps someone here can explain it.

Because I've asked people around me, and actually they don't really know either.

So what has Michael Gove actually done, that is so awful?


Everyone seems against him, but no one seems to be able to explain it rationally when pushed.

I would have thought any MP who thought he could do the job would be entitled to put himself forward.
I guess the point was that the 'plan' was for Johnson to stand and Gove not too. Gove then knifed Johnson, but at that point there was still no indication that Gove was going to stand - so effectively Gove's actions appeared to be one of 'saving' the country from appointing a PM who wasn't up to the job, rather than removing a rival.

Then he surprisingly announced he was standing. I think that is the crux of it.

L.A.

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Re: What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2016, 09:48:14 AM »
Quote
So what has Michael Gove actually done, that is so awful?

Exist?
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Bubbles

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Re: What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2016, 10:08:22 AM »
Ok thanks Prof, although I'm not sure that explains the hatred the papers are whipping up about him.

I was reading one where Boris Johnsons sister said some really awful things about Gove.(either the mail or the sun ).

It got me wondering about what he had really done, and was it deserving of the stuff being dumped on his head.

It's the same with Jeremy Corbyn, he's too left wing for me, but I don't see him as awful either, other than his stubbornness is a bit of a fiasco and it's not in the countries best interest right now. Any other time it would just be funny.

The media seems to be demonising individuals again, I am starting to feel some sympathy for the underdog.

Can't help it.

If I can't totally see what someone has done or a very good reason, I start feeling sorry for them.

I feel the media have an agenda sometimes, and I don't trust them.

Bringing Boris Johnsons sister in on it, to pour more nastiness on Mr Gove's head was OTT IMO.





Bubbles

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Re: What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2016, 10:09:54 AM »
Exist?

That's the problem.

I feel I am being told to hate him by the media and I can't see it's justified.

But then before this I hadn't heard much about him.

L.A.

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Re: What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2016, 10:13:00 AM »
That's the problem.

I feel I am being told to hate him by the media and I can't see it's justified.

But then before this I hadn't heard much about him.

Personally, I have always found him fairly loathsome, but over recent days and weeks he has excelled himself. I would quite like never to hear the name again.
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wigginhall

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Re: What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2016, 10:21:12 AM »
I saw a recent speech of his, and found him fairly scary, as he seemed quite zealous, talking about a burning desire to transform Britain, and so on.   No.
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ekim

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Re: What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2016, 10:21:29 AM »


The media seems to be demonising individuals again, I am starting to feel some sympathy for the underdog.

Can't help it.

If I can't totally see what someone has done or a very good reason, I start feeling sorry for them.

I feel the media have an agenda sometimes, and I don't trust them.

Bringing Boris Johnsons sister in on it, to pour more nastiness on Mr Gove's head was OTT IMO.

Character assassination seems part of the game in politics,especially when it's about leadership.  Do you vote for an 'underdog' or a 'top dog' for leader?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2016, 10:24:11 AM »
That's the problem.

I feel I am being told to hate him by the media and I can't see it's justified.

But then before this I hadn't heard much about him.
All you need to do is ask a teacher (or even a reasonably well informed student) and you'll begin to understand why there is such animosity towards him.

I think what we are seeing now is a case of 'gloves off' - he effectively destroyed Johnson's leadership bid, presumably by being prepared to reveal behind closed doors details that indicted him not to be fit for the job. Having done this it is hardly surprising that others, particularly Johnson supporters, are likely to do the same in return. Hence the relegations about Gove being unable to keep his mouth shut after he has had a few drinks.

L.A.

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Re: What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2016, 10:26:07 AM »
Character assassination seems part of the game in politics,especially when it's about leadership.  Do you vote for an 'underdog' or a 'top dog' for leader?

If Boris and Gove annihilate each other in a blast of hot air, to me that would be a good outcome.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2016, 10:34:12 AM »
I saw a recent speech of his, and found him fairly scary, as he seemed quite zealous, talking about a burning desire to transform Britain, and so on.   No.
I think that is at the heart of the problem.

He is dogmatic and a zealot - he doesn't really seem to understand pragmatism nor the need to take advice (hence his views on 'experts').

So at education he effectively steamrolled the profession into the most significant changes in decades, but without the support of either the teaching profession, nor educational experts. His endless tinkering at at whim has just been exhausting, particularly when you need to gradually bring in changes to the curriculum over years, or you end up with kids lurching from the 'old world' to the 'new world' but without appropriate preparation (not their fault).

Sadly I've got kids who are the guinea pigs for the Gove revolution, and it ain't pretty. A couple of years ago my eldest was making decisions about GCSE options and the school, quite reasonably, wanted to ensure we had the most up to date information. So with so many changes they delayed sending out the info until 5 days before the parents' choices meeting. At the meeting the teachers announced that in the last 5 days there had been 3 major changes in the proposed curriculum, including one that very morning. The teachers were very professional, but clearly exasperated, wanting the best for the kids, but dealing with constantly moving goal-posts.

And a week later one of the main changes was then scrapped.

One of the big changes I think is absolute non-sense is getting rid of AS levels - effectively forcing kids to sit all their A-level exam (that count) at the end of the whole 2 year course. Why?!? It is nonsense and certainly doesn't prepare them for University where (at most) exams are at the end of each year, indeed many universities examine a module at the end of that semester.

ekim

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Re: What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2016, 10:37:03 AM »
If Boris and Gove annihilate each other in a blast of hot air, to me that would be a good outcome.
Encouraging this could well be a ploy of those who support an alternative leader.  In 'Games people play' it's called  .... let you and him fight.

floo

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Re: What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2016, 10:38:25 AM »
Gove is a backstabbing piece of slime. Why didn't he stand without pretending to Boris he was supporting his bid for the leadership?

Brownie

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Re: What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2016, 11:20:55 AM »
Oh seriously, it looks to me as though Boris backed out easily enough.  I'm sure he realised he wasn't up to being the leader.  Being Mayor of London is one thing, he could carry that off, but potentially PM?  Never.  I would think Boris is quite relieved.

I don't like Gove one bit but can't see that he is doing anything wrong by putting himself up for leader.  I doubt he'll get the job.
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floo

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Re: What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2016, 11:31:36 AM »
Of course he did something wrong by pretending to support Boris, then hanging him out to dry!

Brownie

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Re: What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2016, 11:45:28 AM »
Once again you have only scanned the post above yours.
What makes you think he "pretended" to support Boris?
He did support Boris.  Boris is no longer standing so what's the problem?  You can't tell me Boris did not want to get out of it.
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jakswan

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Re: What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2016, 12:35:43 PM »
Once again you have only scanned the post above yours.
What makes you think he "pretended" to support Boris?
He did support Boris.  Boris is no longer standing so what's the problem?  You can't tell me Boris did not want to get out of it.

Hadn't you heard many posters on this forum know exactly what motivates others, if you don't agree you are "insane".

We have "Sass facts" and "Floo facts".
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Re: What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2016, 12:41:01 PM »
I think that is at the heart of the problem.

He is dogmatic and a zealot - he doesn't really seem to understand pragmatism nor the need to take advice (hence his views on 'experts').

Gah I hate defending Tories but when the spin, lies and dog whistles start I have to step in.

He didn't feel the need to listen to expert with regards to Brexit, because these "experts" had been so wrong in the past. That doesn't mean he would never listen to an expert.

Not sure on his record on education there are other views:-
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/03/the-teachers-who-quietly-miss-michael-gove/
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Brownie

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Re: What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2016, 01:15:57 PM »
Hadn't you heard many posters on this forum know exactly what motivates others, if you don't agree you are "insane".

We have "Sass facts" and "Floo facts".

Well, Sass is on gardening leave at present so cannot speak up for herself.  Floo might think differently or at least consider there is another pov, if she read others' posts properly.

I don't like Gove and I know he messed up as Secretary of State for Education, which some still hold against him and is fair enough, but I don't think he either stabbed Mr Johnson in the back or is wrong to stand for party leadership now, with not much chance of being elected.  If that makes me insane, so what.
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jeremyp

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Re: What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2016, 01:27:03 PM »
Gah I hate defending Tories but when the spin, lies and dog whistles start I have to step in.

He didn't feel the need to listen to expert with regards to Brexit, because these "experts" had been so wrong in the past. That doesn't mean he would never listen to an expert.

He didn't feel that we needed to listen to the experts because, almost to a person they were telling us that Brexit would be a disaster. Let's not pretend there is any other reason.

Experts don't always get it right but they are more likely to be correct than the Vote Leave shower, another of whom, I note, has just run away from the mess he helped create.

Quote
Not sure on his record on education there are other views:-
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/03/the-teachers-who-quietly-miss-michael-gove/
My mother, an ex-teacher and school governor seems to think he did OK except that he managed to attract the hatred of nearly everybody in the teaching profession.
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Re: What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2016, 01:40:05 PM »
He didn't feel that we needed to listen to the experts because, almost to a person they were telling us that Brexit would be a disaster. Let's not pretend there is any other reason.

He explained why he didn't listen to these experts in this case but Jeremy with his mind reading skills has corrected us all.
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L.A.

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Re: What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2016, 01:50:43 PM »
Quote
He explained why he didn't listen to these experts in this case but Jeremy with his mind reading skills has corrected us all.

He said it was because they had been wrong in the past, but it seems fairly obviously the real reason was because the answers that they were giving didn't suit his plan.
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jeremyp

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Re: What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2016, 01:52:18 PM »
He explained why he didn't listen to these experts in this case but Jeremy with his mind reading skills has corrected us all.

Oh come on, that was just his excuse for ignoring people who actually know what they are talking about.

Doctors don't always get it right but when you are ill do you go to a doctor or Nigel Farage? Scientists don't always get it right but would you trust Deepak Chopra or Brian Cox on quantum mechanics?
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Udayana

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Re: What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2016, 02:10:45 PM »
From what I've read (mostly in the Times) Johnson effectively knifed himself by not concentrating on the job in hand.

Gove had arranged a deal whereby Leadson was to back Johnson and have a senior cabinet post if he won, but Johnson did not manage to give her the confirmation she wanted in time. She decided to stand herself. This caused Gove to rethink his support of Johnson.

Essentially, Gove was working on getting backing for Johnson to win against May, but Johnson was useless at communicating with this "team", offering the same jobs to multiple people and so on. Gove decided that he would not be competent at managing them as leader. When he decided to stand most of those he had recruited switched to back him, leaving Johnson without enough support to continue.
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SusanDoris

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Re: What did Michael Gove do wrong by putting himself forward?
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2016, 03:59:41 PM »
Exist?

exactly! I gather his wife is a writer of unpleasant articles in the Daily Mail, and gossip has it that Gove gossips , etc. Actually, I cannot think of a single redeeming feature of the ghastly gove! :)
 
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