Chilcott Report

[jakswan]

Blair is untouchable, I would think.   If he was a 3rd world leader, who is black, and has a funny name, he would be in jail already, I would think.   But TB is a cool rich white guy!

If in doubt just call it racism. I think James O'Brien nailed it when he said (paraphrasing) 'what Tony Blair said wasn't true, we hope to find out if he believed what he said to be true when he said it'.

[Udayana]

He did not try hard enough to determine whether it was true not. He wanted it to be true to realize a fantasy of saving the world by guiding the USA in fighting tyranny and terrorist acts.

In fact USA industries were just pursuing their own interests and happy to exploit him as a "useful idiot".

[wigginhall]

If in doubt just call it racism. I think James O'Brien nailed it when he said (paraphrasing) 'what Tony Blair said wasn't true, we hope to find out if he believed what he said to be true when he said it'.

It's more than race, I think.  The old colonial powers can wage aggressive war, without attracting the attention of international tribunals.   Plus the US, of course. 

[Brownie]

I don't think racism was an issue, that's never occurred to me.  I agree that Tony Blair got somewhat carried away with the belief that there were WMD and it needs to be determined whether or not he really believed that. How that can be done I don't know, he may still believe that he did the right thing, given what he knew or thought he knew.

He certainly gave the impression that he was convinced and he was quite convincing at the time from what I remember;  I was never in favour of the war but I knew others who felt the same as me, who reluctantly changed their minds because of what Blair said.

[wigginhall]

I don't think racism was an issue, that's never occurred to me.  I agree that Tony Blair got somewhat carried away with the belief that there were WMD and it needs to be determined whether or not he really believed that. How that can be done I don't know, he may still believe that he did the right thing, given what he knew or thought he knew.

He certainly gave the impression that he was convinced and he was quite convincing at the time from what I remember;  I was never in favour of the war but I knew others who felt the same as me, who reluctantly changed their minds because of what Blair said.

That was jakswan's talent for misrepresentation.   I didn't say that it was race pure and simple, but that the Western powers pretty much have carte blanche for aggressive war.    I'm not sure how much racism was involved in the Iraq war, although I suspect that Arabs were seen as easy targets, sand niggers, and so on.

[Brownie]

I knew it was Jakswan, not you.
Gosh I've never thought of Arabs in that way ('sand niggers", not heard that before), and it didn't occur to me that anyone else would.  Well, they have certainly proved they are not easy targets.

[wigginhall]

I knew it was Jakswan, not you.
Gosh I've never thought of Arabs in that way ('sand niggers", not heard that before), and it didn't occur to me that anyone else would.  Well, they have certainly proved they are not easy targets.

There's an interesting literature on 'Orientalism', which treats Arab culture as exotic and seductive, and produced many Victorian paintings of sultry maidens in the harem, but also market scenes, and so on.   (Also, Lawrence of Arabia is part of this).   Arguably, this is the other side of 'sand niggers', since while they are sultry, they are also stupid and have to be led.   But to really explore this in relation to Western relations to the Arab world would take a lot of research.   

[Brownie]

Yes it would.
When I was young I found 'Orientalism' fascinating but when I was at work I met so many Arabs from various countries, also had Arab/Muslim colleagues and didn't think about any of that, they were just people I knew the same as anyone else. 

[Gonnagle]

Dear Brownie,

WMD, a red herring, Bush wanted revenge, he was going to war with somebody over 9/11, you don't attack America and walk away, Tony Blair was his pal, you got a friend in me, the U.S was ready for war, we were not.

Don't listen to any arguments over WMD, Blair wanted to please America, he was over in America to push the point, we are your pals, we won't let you down, Britain is the poor cousin to the U.S.

We need to look again at that relationship,  I am not saying we should turn our backs on the U.S but we should certainly check our response to each time the U.S twitches.

The U.S.A has the money and the logistics to go to war any time it wants, it prides itself on this, we don't, our military has been underfunded for years.

So to end my little rantette, get rid of trident or cut back on it, use some of that money to fund or own military properly, if we are to ease the migrant situation, we need to go back to the countries they have been displaced from, help them to return, give them proper infrastructure, education and we need to stay there until they have a democracy along the same lines as we do.

Or we can say, bugger all to do with us, send them all home, not our problem.

Gonnagle.

[wigginhall]

Yes it would.
When I was young I found 'Orientalism' fascinating but when I was at work I met so many Arabs from various countries, also had Arab/Muslim colleagues and didn't think about any of that, they were just people I knew the same as anyone else.

Yes, I think that's it.  These fantasies depend on being distant from the people involved.   As soon as you have a neighbour, the fantasies start to diminish, well, quite often.   I had a Somali neighbour who was lovely, but nonetheless, there were still people in the area who reckoned she was a kind of sand nigger.

[Brownie]

Thanks wigginhall.  Undoubtedly there are stupid Arabs but so are there many stupid British, it's too ridiculous to label an entire people as stupid when it is obvious so many are far from stupid.

Gonnagle, thank you for that post and I agree with every word you said about UK/USA relations in general and the Blair/Bush relationship in particular.

[wigginhall]

Thanks wigginhall.  Undoubtedly there are stupid Arabs but so are there many stupid British, it's too ridiculous to label an entire people as stupid when it is obvious so many are far from stupid.

Gonnagle, thank you for that post and I agree with every word you said about UK/USA relations in general and the Blair/Bush relationship in particular.

I don't think it's about stupid Arabs as such, but that colonialism and post-colonialism objectifies and reduces the 'subaltern' populations.   I suppose it's another form of reverse engineering - we have conquered these lands, but the reason is that the peoples therein are a dark and loathsome breed, who need our civilized values, or alternatively, kill large numbers thereof.    Then the world is a safer place (T. Blair). 

[jakswan]

It's more than race, I think.  The old colonial powers can wage aggressive war, without attracting the attention of international tribunals.   Plus the US, of course.

You will have to give details, as I understood it the Hague was for trying people that are guilty of war crimes. I see no evidence that race plays a part in who is charged which was what you were implying.

[wigginhall]

You will have to give details, as I understood it the Hague was for trying people that are guilty of war crimes. I see no evidence that race plays a part in who is charged which was what you were implying.

Hang on, are you going to retract your misrepresentation of me?

[Dicky Underpants]

You will have to give details, as I understood it the Hague was for trying people that are guilty of war crimes. I see no evidence that race plays a part in who is charged which was what you were implying.

What on earth do you think wiggi was implying?

[Dicky Underpants]

He certainly gave the impression that he was convinced and he was quite convincing at the time from what I remember;  I was never in favour of the war but I knew others who felt the same as me, who reluctantly changed their minds because of what Blair said.

Very much of the unhappy saga depends on Blair's touching love-in with Bush, I think. And a lot depends on that condemning phrase "I'm with you, whatever". This morning I heard Blair try to give a twist to that word "whatever" which, as far as I know (apart from its overuse by disaffected 'yoof'), has one specific meaning, which cannot be subjected to qualification. Blair complained that he had said 'whatever - but'. In fact, the 'whatever' word is final. He may have asked Bush to fully investigate the complexity of the situation before acting - nonetheless, he implies that he would be with him "whatever". And he was.

[Brownie]

I wonder how real the details are to him all these years later, or how they have altered, subtly, in his mind Dicky.
He must wish it hadn't happened.  Might help if he just said that whatever he believed at the time, he now regrets it all.

Jackswan, you said: If in doubt just call it racism.

[Dicky Underpants]

I wonder how real the details are to him all these years later, or how they have altered, subtly, in his mind Dicky.
He must wish it hadn't happened.  Might help if he just said that whatever he believed at the time, he now regrets it all.

Jackswan, you said: If in doubt just call it racism.

I totally agree that I'm sure the simplest thing all along would have been to say that he got it wrong and regrets it all. But he seems to have been committed to endless word-spinning and self-justification, which he appears to be capable and willing to indulge in ad infinitum. Maybe his accumulating wealth assuages any occasional moments of negative media exposure he may have to undergo these days. I doubt he'll be prosecuted, and if he were, I'd have to find myself a hat to eat.

[Udayana]

Very much of the unhappy saga depends on Blair's touching love-in with Bush, I think. And a lot depends on that condemning phrase "I'm with you, whatever". This morning I heard Blair try to give a twist to that word "whatever" which, as far as I know (apart from its overuse by disaffected 'yoof'), has one specific meaning, which cannot be subjected to qualification. Blair complained that he had said 'whatever - but'. In fact, the 'whatever' word is final. He may have asked Bush to fully investigate the complexity of the situation before acting - nonetheless, he implies that he would be with him "whatever". And he was.

Apparently, and (to me) amazingly David Manning and Jonathon Powell met with Blair and pleaded with him to remove the "whatever" from the opening phrase in the memo - but he would not.

Blair sent a number of private memos to Bush, but Bush never replied.

[jakswan]

Hang on, are you going to retract your misrepresentation of me?

You will have to explain?

[Nearly Sane]

Of course it has

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/the-sun-has-deleted-its-list-of-iraq-war-traitors-from-2003--WJYTGafvHW

[Hope]

What legal status does 'contempt of Parliament', the modern equivalent of impeachment have for someone no longer in the House/political system?

[Owlswing]

What legal status does 'contempt of Parliament', the modern equivalent of impeachment have for someone no longer in the House/political system?

But he was when the "crime" was committed!

Profumo lied to the HoC and was ruined by it - Blair did it and has made millions out of it - and - guess what - the bastard is STILL lying about it!

[Harrowby Hall]

What legal status does 'contempt of Parliament', the modern equivalent of impeachment have for someone no longer in the House/political system?

Surely, Contempt of Parliament and Impeachment are totally different things. Contempt occurs when Parliament considers that Parliament  itself has suffered some wrong, whereas Impeachment occurs when some other action,not necessarily related to Parliament itself, renders an individual potentially unfitted for public office.

[Hope]

Surely, Contempt of Parliament and Impeachment are totally different things. Contempt occurs when Parliament considers that Parliament  itself has suffered some wrong, whereas Impeachment occurs when some other action,not necessarily related to Parliament itself, renders an individual potentially unfitted for public office.

I thought that as well, HH, till I saw this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-36746444.  See the 2nd paragraph starting after the picture of TB.  Mind you, I misread it slightly, it doesn't say 'the modern version', but 'a modern version'.