Get your hijab off!

[Nearly Sane]

Really, Kelvin?


http://www.channel4.com/news/channel-4-news-statement

[JP]

While I am not defending anyone, what is wrong with his comments. Surely he is entitled to an opinion.

[Bubbles]

What did he say?

I've just been reading about a man who ripped off a woman's niquab.

It wasn about that was it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-36832619

[Nearly Sane]

Well for a start one might have hoped for a smidgen of humility from the editor of the Sun at the time of Hillsborough. As to the wrongness here would it have been inappropraite for a Catholic to report on an IRA bombing? How about is it appropriate for a man to report on this? After all it was carried out by a man?

[Nearly Sane]

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/sun-column-on-nice-attack-journalist-wearing-hijab-on-channel-4-sparks-200-complaints/ar-BBuu7Qe?li=BBoPWjQ&OCID=ansmsnnews11

[Brownie]

This is what Kelvin MacKenzie actually said:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1459893/why-did-channel-4-have-a-presenter-in-a-hijab-to-front-coverage-of-muslim-terror-in-nice/

I saw some of the Ch4 news report that he talks about and have to say that I didn't give the woman reporter's headgear a second thought until reading this, I'm sure no-one else did either.

Yes jp, Mr MacKenzie is entitled to his opinion but what he says shows him to be a grossly bumptious, ignorant prat by drawing attention to someone's dress that would otherwise have been hardly noticed.  He typifies the bigot, an anachronistic figure whose views place him firmly back in the 1950s and early 60s.  I'm pretty sure nobody else would have found the use of a reporter in hijab 'insensitive' after the Nice attack. 

On ITV we've had Rageh Omaar talking about Islamic terrorism and Sadiq Khan was interviewed about such things before and after becoming London Mayor;  of course they don't wear a hijab (at least not outside their own homes  ), but are obviously Muslim.  Rageh used to report from the firing line during the first Gulf war and he was a star!

Why is there house room for the better educated Alf Garnett types in British journalism?  Those of his ilk plant seeds in otherwise vacant minds of the ignorant, and are dangerous.

[Hope]

While I am not defending anyone, what is wrong with his comments. Surely he is entitled to an opinion.

But was the opinion helpful in the current climate, JP?  Does it take the debate backwards or forwards?  Have to admit to not having seen the bulletin question - I don't tend not to watch the Channel 4 news, let alone read the red-tops. However, I saw the link to the story on the Beeb's website earlier. The

[JP]

It does not take the likes of Kelvin MacKenzie to sow any seeds. Many people are not as thick as you think.

Time for a little quiz. Which of these, both said to women, would be more likely to get the regressive left up in arms and land you in bother with the plod

A) Cover up you slag, you dress like a whore.

or

B) Take that heascarf off you stupid subservient bitch.

[Nearly Sane]

It does not take the likes of Kelvin MacKenzie to sow any seeds. Many people are not as thick as you think.

Time for a little quiz. Which of these, both said to women, would be more likely to get the regressive left up in arms and land you in bother with the plod

A) Cover up you slag, you dress like a whore.

or

B) Take that heascarf off you stupid subservient bitch.

And JP tries an irrelevant tu quoque.

[JP]

*doffs cap to superior intellect*

[Nearly Sane]

*doffs cap to superior intellect*

In what way was it relevant to the issue with MacKenzie's comments on Fatima Manji? You have had a variety of points made in the thread but instead of addressing any you choose to talk about something unconnected and tried a bit of a tu quoque (irrelevant because it's not even a tu here).

[JP]

Kelvin McKenzie voices an opinion and is called a " bumptious, ignorant prat by drawing attention to someone's dress that would otherwise have been hardly noticed" and likened to Alf Garnett (btw, I would have noticed as it sticks out like a sore thumb, a lot of other people noticed as well)

Channel 4 said his comments were " offensive, completely unacceptable, and arguably tantamount to inciting religious and even racial hatred" so I just thought I would test the water with a couple of examples as to what would get you in trouble.

Plus, I still don't know what race Islam is. Is it the same race as Christianity?

[Brownie]

Well they did say, "..and even racial hatred", racism is not a given as Muslims come from all races.  However people tend to think of most Muslims as Middle Eastern/Indian sub-continent so that is where the possibility of racial hatred comes in.

Regarding the two insults to women you proposed above:  I think they are equally offensive and would rile anyone. 

[JP]

Well Brownie, they might rile anyone but which one may be more likely to land you in trouble with the law.

[Nearly Sane]

Kelvin McKenzie voices an opinion and is called a " bumptious, ignorant prat by drawing attention to someone's dress that would otherwise have been hardly noticed" and likened to Alf Garnett (btw, I would have noticed as it sticks out like a sore thumb, a lot of other people noticed as well)

Channel 4 said his comments were " offensive, completely unacceptable, and arguably tantamount to inciting religious and even racial hatred" so I just thought I would test the water with a couple of examples as to what would get you in trouble.

Plus, I still don't know what race Islam is. Is it the same race as Christianity?

And that covers ignoring the points made because?

As to the 'even racial hatred' I think you need to see the word 'even' there - it's a qualifier and covers that given Mackenzie's remarks it might just be about brown people shouldn't report on brown people.


Also you didn't just present two sets ofinsults, you questioned how the 'regressive left' would react.


Anyway that aside - are you in agreement with Mackenzie?  If not, what point are you trying to make, because I'm struggling to see it currently?

[Brownie]

Well Brownie, they might rile anyone but which one may be more likely to land you in trouble with the law.

Either, I would think.  Are people allowed to go around calling others "slags" and "whores"?  If they are, they shouldn't be.  Certainly if someone spoke like that at work, they'd be sacked.

[jeremyp]

Kelvin McKenzie voices an opinion and is called a " bumptious, ignorant prat by drawing attention to someone's dress that would otherwise have been hardly noticed"

I think you miss the point. It's not really about her dress which merely marked her out as a Muslim. His really problem was with the idea of a Muslim presenting an item about another Muslim who killed lots of people.

That's what makes him a bumptious ignorant prat.

By the way, some of the victims were Muslims. 

[Brownie]

I think you miss the point. It's not really about her dress which merely marked her out as a Muslim. His really problem was with the idea of a Muslim presenting an item about another Muslim who killed lots of people.

That's what makes him a bumptious ignorant prat.

By the way, some of the victims were Muslims.

Yes it was about that Jeremy, Kelvin MacKenzie obviously has something against Muslims but won't actually say so.  Knowing what I do about him, that doesn't surprise me.

Indeed there were Muslims amongst the casualties, several Muslims were interviewed on the news.

There is nothing wrong with a Muslim journalist reporting or commenting on a terrorist attack perpetrated by extremist Muslims, no-one would bat an eyelid if a white European nominal Christian reported on an atrocity committed by a white person of the Christian persuasion.  Double standards.

[JP]

I think people are entitled to their opinion. I think the freedom to express your opinion in the UK is diminishing.

[jeremyp]

I think people are entitled to their opinion. I think the freedom to express your opinion in the UK is diminishing.

The right to free speech does not include immunity from criticism.

It is your right to say something stupid. It is the right of everybody else to tell you it is stupid.

[Nearly Sane]

I think people are entitled to their opinion. I think the freedom to express your opinion in the UK is diminishing.

Not entirely sure what this has to do with the thread, nor how it is an answer to my question but hey ho.
You seem to be confused in that you seem to regard people expressing an opinion about other's opinions as somehow restricting them



And before we go any further, can I just check if you believe in absolute freedom of speech, or are we just discussing where to draw a line?

[Sassy]

Perhaps we should do as Belgium and France have done ban all head wear. Except normal hats of course.

[Harrowby Hall]

Perhaps we should do as Belgium and France have done ban all head wear. Except normal hats of course.

No more nuns.

[Brownie]

I didn't know the hijab was banned in Belgium and France though I remember mutterings about it, as there have been here.  However I can't see how a hijab would bother anyone, some are really pretty and colourful and women who wear them generally make their faces up beautifully.

Sheitels are not banned in Belgium and women often wear a hat over one of those too.  In Belgium the sheitels are more elaborate than over here, often long and flowing!  There would be uproar if they were banned.   Double standards.

However this thread was about a Muslim journalist speaking about a terrorist attack, and another journalist feeling that was somehow wrong.  I suppose if she hadn't worn a hijab and pretended to be a Sikh, he wouldn't have worried. If a Catholic journalist had reported on the IRA terrorist attacks over here years ago, would that have invoked Kelvin McKenzie's criticism?  Honestly I despair of the thinking of a journalist who is one of my countrymen, it's embarrassing.

A thought inspired by my last paragraph - are Sikh men not permitted to wear turbans in Belgium?
No hijabs - no sheitels - no turbans.   No variety, no diversity of religion, no colour in society. How bland.
No thanks.

[Nearly Sane]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13038095


Not quite all head coverings, see link