Sports Personality of the Year

[Nearly Sane]

I don't generally vote but I will this year. Take a bow Mr Alistair Brownlee


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/triathlon/37402716

[BashfulAnthony]

At the moment I would vote for one of the Paralympians. Problem is: which one!

[Nearly Sane]

At the moment I would vote for one of the Paralympians. Problem is: which one!

Why one of them?

[BashfulAnthony]

Why one of them?

I suppose you could pick one, and vote for the Paralympic team as team of the year as well.

[Nearly Sane]

I suppose you could pick one, and vote for the Paralympic team as team of the year as well.

But I asked you why one of the Paralympic team as opposed to anyone else?

[Hope]

I had the same thought as BA, on seeing the thread title.  Why?  Probably because I have heard a number of disabled folk I know - of all ages - saying how the ParaGB team's performances have really inspired them to get out and do something.  Whether they will is, of course, another matter - but the sheer fact of their thinking this way is a real inspiration to me - who ain't disabled, but also not able to do as much exercise as I used to, 'thanks to' the events of last October.

[Nearly Sane]

I had the same thought as BA, on seeing the thread title.  Why?  Probably because I have heard a number of disabled folk I know - of all ages - saying how the ParaGB team's performances have really inspired them to get out and do something.  Whether they will is, of course, another matter - but the sheer fact of their thinking this way is a real inspiration to me - who ain't disabled, but also not able to do as much exercise as I used to, 'thanks to' the events of last October.

Surely this estimates such performances because they are successful and differently abled?

[BashfulAnthony]

But I asked you why one of the Paralympic team as opposed to anyone else?

There's no need to make an issue of it.. If you want, you can vote for someone because they look good!  I would vote for a Paralympian because they have to overcome so many obstacles to reach the level they have, and that takes enormous will and application.

[Nearly Sane]

There's no need to make an issue of it.. If you want, you can vote for someone because they look good!  I would vote for a Paralympian because they have to overcome so many obstacles to reach the level they have, and that takes enormous will and application.

You need to realise that asking 'why' you do something is not 'making an issue', or challenging your right to vote for who you want to. As to your reason, I think there is something patronising about the attitude that we should look on paralympians as doing anything different from any other athletes or sportspeople. I look at Alistair Brownlee and Sarah Storey as doing the sane thing. It feels to me you don't.

[BashfulAnthony]

You need to realise that asking 'why' you do something is not 'making an issue', or challenging your right to vote for who you want to. As to your reason, I think there is something patronising about the attitude that we should look on paralympians as doing anything different from any other athletes or sportspeople. I look at Alistair Brownlee and Sarah Storey as doing the sane thing. It feels to me you don't.

I shall look to the Paralympics to decide who to vote for:  end of.

[Nearly Sane]

I shall look to the Paralympics to decide who to vote for:  end of.

You certainly have a wealth of candidates to choose from

[Hope]

I look at Alistair Brownlee and Sarah Storey as doing the sane thing. It feels to me you don't.

That suggests that any two sportspeople ought to be seen as 'doing the same thing', NS?

[Nearly Sane]

That suggests that any two sportspeople ought to be seen as 'doing the same thing', NS?

More or less, do you think Sarah Storey does something different to Alistair Brownlee? Are you saying to her that she should be evaluated differently from him?

[Hope]

More or less, do you think Sarah Storey does something different to Alistair Brownlee? Are you saying to her that she should be evaluated differently from him?

No, I'm trying to point out that - if we follow your way of thinking - there can't be a 'Sports Personality of the Year' as they're all the same as as each other.

[Nearly Sane]

No, I'm trying to point out that - if we follow your way of thinking - there can't be a 'Sports Personality of the Year' as they're all the same as as each other.

Saying people should be evaluated in the same way does not say they are the same as each other

[Hope]

Saying people should be evaluated in the same way does not say they are the same as each other

Yet when BA and I suggested that one or more paralympian ought to get the SPOTY award this year, you seemed to suggest that they didn't have the same cachet as some other sports personality.  You can't have it both ways.

[Nearly Sane]

Yet when BA and I suggested that one or more paralympian ought to get the SPOTY award this year, you seemed to suggest that they didn't have the same cachet as some other sports personality.  You can't have it both ways.

No, I said they had precisely the same cachet. Read the posts.

[Hope]

No, I said they had precisely the same cachet. Read the posts.

Hence my point that the SPOTY idea must be impossible

[ProfessorDavey]

I suppose you could pick one, and vote for the Paralympic team as team of the year as well.

Why the Paralympic team rather than the Olympic team.

Surely the Olympic team coming second, which it hasn't done in modern times, is more impressive that the Paralympic team's second which simply matches the result in 2000, 2004 and 2008. And don't forget that there are some countries that haven't really embraced the Paralympian concept (step forward USA) so the competition is less intense than for the Olympics where pretty well all countries participate fully. Also, of course Russia was completely banned from the Paralympics, which was not the case for the Olympics, further reducing the competitiveness of the games.

So to my mind the Olympic team success was better than the Paralympic team. Of course you can try to elevate the Paralympian success simply because they are disabled, rather than on an objective assessment of the sporting performance, but isn't that exactly what the Paralympic movement is trying to combat as an attitude.

[BashfulAnthony]

Why the Paralympic team rather than the Olympic team.

Surely the Olympic team coming second, which it hasn't done in modern times, is more impressive that the Paralympic team's second which simply matches the result in 2000, 2004 and 2008. And don't forget that there are some countries that haven't really embraced the Paralympian concept (step forward USA) so the competition is less intense than for the Olympics where pretty well all countries participate fully. Also, of course Russia was completely banned from the Paralympics, which was not the case for the Olympics, further reducing the competitiveness of the games.

So to my mind the Olympic team success was better than the Paralympic team. Of course you can try to elevate the Paralympian success simply because they are disabled, rather than on an objective assessment of the sporting performance, but isn't that exactly what the Paralympic movement is trying to combat as an attitude.

Of course you have a point, and it can become invidious to choose any particular athlete over another.  I quite agree: the Olympic team were outstanding;  but whatever your stance on their disabilities, and whatever they may think of public attitudes, some of the performances were superb, accomplished often after barely believable difficulties. That surely deserves the highest accolade.  I would vote for them all, but we have to choose one.  Perhaps we could vote for the Olympic teams, both, for team of the year.

[Hope]

And don't forget that there are some countries that haven't really embraced the Paralympian concept (step forward USA) so the competition is less intense than for the Olympics where pretty well all countries participate fully. Also, of course Russia was completely banned from the Paralympics, which was not the case for the Olympics, further reducing the competitiveness of the games.

I haven't sat down and done a comparison of acheivement based on world records, as opposed to medal colour, but I have the impression that more world and Olympic records were set by British athletes in the Paralympics than in the Olympics.

[jeremyp]

I haven't sat down and done a comparison of acheivement based on world records, as opposed to medal colour, but I have the impression that more world and Olympic records were set by British athletes in the Paralympics than in the Olympics.

That would probably be true but there are reasons why that isn't necessarily that impressive.

Firstly, there are many more medals available in the Paralympics per discipline. There necessarily have to be different competitions for different types and levels of disability.

Secondly, a Paralympian is competing against a much smaller pool of competitors than an Olympian. Laura Trott has risen to the top of a pool of competitors that includes every single female competition cyclist in the World. Sarah Storey won a Gold medal in the C5 category this time around which most of the World's female cyclists are excluded from because they are not disabled and many of the rest are too severely disabled to provide serious competition in C5.

Thirdly, support for disability sport in the UK is very strong. This is not necessarily the case for countries that "take away" medals from the UK in the Olympics. Where was the USA, for example? In fourth place.

[Hope]

I'm in full agreement with your analysis, jeremy.  Therein lies the rub, there is is such a fine line between just about every successful athlete, whatever their discipline. 

[ProfessorDavey]

That would probably be true but there are reasons why that isn't necessarily that impressive.

Firstly, there are many more medals available in the Paralympics per discipline. There necessarily have to be different competitions for different types and levels of disability.

Secondly, a Paralympian is competing against a much smaller pool of competitors than an Olympian. Laura Trott has risen to the top of a pool of competitors that includes every single female competition cyclist in the World. Sarah Storey won a Gold medal in the C5 category this time around which most of the World's female cyclists are excluded from because they are not disabled and many of the rest are too severely disabled to provide serious competition in C5.

Thirdly, support for disability sport in the UK is very strong. This is not necessarily the case for countries that "take away" medals from the UK in the Olympics. Where was the USA, for example? In fourth place.

That's right.

And when there is a small pool of competitors and the sports are developing fast, expect there to be loads of records broken. That is often the sign that the competition isn't that great. I am in no way denigrating the paralympians, but their achievement, as a team, to my mind (and I believe objectively) doesn't stack up to the Olympians who achieved something that a British Olympic team hasn't done ever - finished second away from home. Actually the only time Britain has finished higher was in 1908 when they topped the table, but that doesn't really count as it wasn't really a properly global competition and routinely the hosts (however small) ended up at the top or almost top.

[Aruntraveller]

It surely should be Sam Allardyce with his 100% record.