Author Topic: Sports Personality of the Year  (Read 12094 times)

Brownie

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Re: Sports Personality of the Year
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2016, 07:38:40 PM »
Claudia Fragapane, Ellie Simmonds, Tom Daley stand out amongst my favourites.
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Hope

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Re: Sports Personality of the Year
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2016, 09:49:22 PM »
Claudia Fragapane, Ellie Simmonds, Tom Daley stand out amongst my favourites.
Tom Daley - for his signal failure throughout the event?   ;)
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Sports Personality of the Year
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2016, 10:06:24 PM »
Tom Daley - for his signal failure throughout the event?   ;)
No silly, for his Speedos!  :-[
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Sports Personality of the Year
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2016, 04:57:54 PM »
And so we have a list of 16 but no Chris Froome, no Carl Frampton, no Charlotte Dujardin amongst other, thoughts?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/sports-personality/38128822



jeremyp

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Re: Sports Personality of the Year
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2016, 07:55:11 PM »
And so we have a list of 16 but no Chris Froome, no Carl Frampton, no Charlotte Dujardin amongst other, thoughts?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/sports-personality/38128822
Laura Trott is missing too.

Of that bunch, I'd go with Andy Murray
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Sports Personality of the Year
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2016, 07:58:45 PM »
Laura Trott is missing too.

Of that bunch, I'd go with Andy Murray
And yet, no she isn't, just married

jeremyp

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Re: Sports Personality of the Year
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2016, 08:03:21 PM »
And yet, no she isn't, just married
Oh yes, my mistake. I was also going to complain about her husband being missing but he's there too. I therefore revise my choice, one of the Kenneys
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Sports Personality of the Year
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2016, 08:19:13 PM »
Oh yes, my mistake. I was also going to complain about her husband being missing but he's there too. I therefore revise my choice, one of the Kenneys
For this year I would vote Alistair Brownlee as noted before but leaving aside that Murray. Just think it odd that we get Vardy not Froome. And Frampton missed!

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Re: Sports Personality of the Year
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2016, 10:10:43 PM »
Good to see that the annual ' but it says 'personality' ' comments are out in force this year.

Anchorman

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Re: Sports Personality of the Year
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2016, 09:21:28 AM »
Yep. Everyone has a personality. It might not be the personality you want to see - or even the personality of a sheet of cardboard, but, hey, it's a personality. Murry delivered more for his sport than any other brit in modern times - and deserved the honour - again. Miind you, I'd have liked a Brownlee to have scooped the prize.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sports Personality of the Year
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2016, 10:02:54 AM »
Yep. Everyone has a personality. It might not be the personality you want to see - or even the personality of a sheet of cardboard, but, hey, it's a personality. Murry delivered more for his sport than any other brit in modern times - and deserved the honour - again. Miind you, I'd have liked a Brownlee to have scooped the prize.
Agree that Murray is a worthy winner.

Disagree that he has 'delivered more for his sport than any other brit in modern times'.

Enki

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Re: Sports Personality of the Year
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2016, 12:15:40 PM »
Agree that Murray is a worthy winner.

Disagree that he has 'delivered more for his sport than any other brit in modern times'.

Just asking:

Do you disagree that Murray has delivered more for his sport(which is tennis) than any other brit has for tennis in modern times
or
Do you disagree that Murray has delivered more for his sport(which is tennis) than any other brit has for their particular sport in modern times?

Or is it both?
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sports Personality of the Year
« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2016, 12:49:32 PM »
Just asking:

Do you disagree that Murray has delivered more for his sport(which is tennis) than any other brit has for tennis in modern times
or
Do you disagree that Murray has delivered more for his sport(which is tennis) than any other brit has for their particular sport in modern times?

Or is it both?
I read it as the second option.

So I don't think that Andy Murray has delivered more for his sport(which is tennis) than any other brit has for their particular sport in modern times.

I think that without doubt he has delivered more for his sport(which is tennis) than any other brit has for tennis in modern times. But that isn't saying a lot as Brits have been useless at tennis for years. Murray is genuinely world class and has finally risen to number one in the rankings, and has current been there for a few weeks. But there are plenty of other Brits who have been global number one in their sports over extended period, hence my disagreement with the statement in its second form.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 01:16:47 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Sports Personality of the Year
« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2016, 12:54:13 PM »
I read it as the second option.

Maybe Anchorman can tell us which version he was using?
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jeremyp

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Re: Sports Personality of the Year
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2016, 01:12:16 PM »
I'd like to know what he means by "delivered more". More trophies? More money? More interest? More participants?

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Enki

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Re: Sports Personality of the Year
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2016, 02:30:27 PM »
I read it as the second option.

So I don't think that Andy Murray has delivered more for his sport(which is tennis) than any other brit has for their particular sport in modern times.

I think that without doubt he has delivered more for his sport(which is tennis) than any other brit has for tennis in modern times. But that isn't saying a lot as Brits have been useless at tennis for years. Murray is genuinely world class and has finally risen to number one in the rankings, and has current been there for a few weeks. But there are plenty of other Brits who have been global number one in their sports over extended period, hence my disagreement with the statement in its second form.

And I think I agree with you, Prof.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Sports Personality of the Year
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2016, 02:46:38 PM »
I read it as the second option.

So I don't think that Andy Murray has delivered more for his sport(which is tennis) than any other brit has for their particular sport in modern times.

I think that without doubt he has delivered more for his sport(which is tennis) than any other brit has for tennis in modern times. But that isn't saying a lot as Brits have been useless at tennis for years. Murray is genuinely world class and has finally risen to number one in the rankings, and has current been there for a few weeks. But there are plenty of other Brits who have been global number one in their sports over extended period, hence my disagreement with the statement in its second form.


As an alternative it could be argued that Murray has done more in terms of changing our expectations in his sport than anyone else. Arguably Bradley Wiggins in that first TdF win, or Mo Farah in his competition wins in long dustance running, did but most other successful sports people did so in sports where British expectations were already quite high. Even with Wiggins and Farah, if we take cycling and athletics as the equivalent to tennis, it can be argued that it was in the tradition of a successful British participation.

Murray's wins at a  male Grand Slam tournament, Wimbledon men's,  and the significant driver in winning the Davis Cup, all for the first time in over 70 years , and becoming the first British male to be ranked No 3, 2, 1 in the Open era is a step change from what was achieved previously.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 02:51:29 PM by Nearly Sane »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sports Personality of the Year
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2016, 03:16:53 PM »

As an alternative it could be argued that Murray has done more in terms of changing our expectations in his sport than anyone else. Arguably Bradley Wiggins in that first TdF win, or Mo Farah in his competition wins in long dustance running, did but most other successful sports people did so in sports where British expectations were already quite high. Even with Wiggins and Farah, if we take cycling and athletics as the equivalent to tennis, it can be argued that it was in the tradition of a successful British participation.

Murray's wins at a  male Grand Slam tournament, Wimbledon men's,  and the significant driver in winning the Davis Cup, all for the first time in over 70 years , and becoming the first British male to be ranked No 3, 2, 1 in the Open era is a step change from what was achieved previously.
But that is really a different way of saying that:

Murray has delivered more for his sport(which is tennis) than any other brit has for tennis in modern times

The point being that Murray's achievements are context specific - in other words in the context of a sport where Brits have done really poorly. But had Brits done fantastically at tennis over the decades, then his achievements would be fine, but nothing out of the ordinary. And I'm struggling with the notion of Murray somehow as the greatest British sportsperson of recent times when, arguably over the period of his tennis career he is probably only the 4th best (with Federer, Nadal and Djokovic ahead of him).

To my mind to be really great you need to be great regardless of context, so the best in the world over an extended period of time in your sport. So using that way of thinking then Wiggins has a claim, as does Hoy (in differing disciplines world beating in cycling over a number of years), also Redgrave and perhaps Farah.

So I don't think you can be the greatest just by changing our expectations, you are the greatest because you are the very best, regardless of expectations.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sports Personality of the Year
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2016, 03:23:28 PM »
But that is really a different way of saying that:

Murray has delivered more for his sport(which is tennis) than any other brit has for tennis in modern times

The point being that Murray's achievements are context specific - in other words in the context of a sport where Brits have done really poorly. But had Brits done fantastically at tennis over the decades, then his achievements would be fine, but nothing out of the ordinary. And I'm struggling with the notion of Murray somehow as the greatest British sportsperson of recent times when, arguably over the period of his tennis career he is probably only the 4th best (with Federer, Nadal and Djokovic ahead of him).

To my mind to be really great you need to be great regardless of context, so the best in the world over an extended period of time in your sport. So using that way of thinking then Wiggins has a claim, as does Hoy (in differing disciplines world beating in cycling over a number of years), also Redgrave and perhaps Farah.

So I don't think you can be the greatest just by changing our expectations, you are the greatest because you are the very best, regardless of expectations.

Why are you changing the point of discussion here from the question of  what might be meant by 'delivered more for his sport in modern times' to the question of the greatest ever? These seem not the same statement.  Further given the use of 'his sport' in Anchorman's post, there us obviously a question of specificity. I suggest that if you want to continue the greatest ever question you could do that on the pre existing thread for that rather than getting yourself and, possibly, others confused here.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sports Personality of the Year
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2016, 03:30:49 PM »
Why are you changing the point of discussion here from the question of  what might be meant by 'delivered more for his sport in modern times' to the question of the greatest ever? These seem not the same statement.  Further given the use of 'his sport' in Anchorman's post, there us obviously a question of specificity. I suggest that if you want to continue the greatest ever question you could do that on the pre existing thread for that rather than getting yourself and, possibly, others confused here.
Well I think that to have 'delivered more for his sport in modern times' than any other Brit then I would think it reasonable to expect that person to be the very best. The question wasn't about delivering the most for British tennis' but about delivering the most for tennis, so the reach of their impact must surely have to go way beyond british tennis, but global tennis. And sure Murray is currently number one, but his impact is largely british, rather than global on the basis that he isn't even the stand out alone player of his generation.

None of this is in any way dismissing his achievements, they are stunning, merely point out that so have other tennis players in the past few years. By contrast I think it would be hard for global cycling to look much further than the achievements of the likes of Hoy, or Wiggins, or global long distance athletics to look beyond Farah.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sports Personality of the Year
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2016, 03:36:14 PM »
Well I think that to have 'delivered more for his sport in modern times' than any other Brit then I would think it reasonable to expect that person to be the very best. The question wasn't about delivering the most for British tennis' but about delivering the most for tennis, so the reach of their impact must surely have to go way beyond british tennis, but global tennis. And sure Murray is currently number one, but his impact is largely british, rather than global on the basis that he isn't even the stand out alone player of his generation.

None of this is in any way dismissing his achievements, they are stunning, merely point out that so have other tennis players in the past few years. By contrast I think it would be hard for global cycling to look much further than the achievements of the likes of Hoy, or Wiggins, or global long distance athletics to look beyond Farah.

I would suspect if someone wanted to say the 'greatest ever British sportsman' and not look on it as somehow specific to a sport they wouldn't use 'his sport' or delivered but then I was merely making a case for what Anchorman might mean, not saying it is what they mean as you have decided to do.

Given that there is a preexisting thread on the greatest sportsman for Britain, I'll not derail this thread further with more discussion of that here.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sports Personality of the Year
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2016, 03:42:07 PM »
I would suspect if someone wanted to say the 'greatest ever British sportsman' and not look on it as somehow specific to a sport they wouldn't use 'his sport' or delivered but then I was merely making a case for what Anchorman might mean, not saying it is what they mean as you have decided to do.

Given that there is a preexisting thread on the greatest sportsman for Britain, I'll not derail this thread further with more discussion of that here.
Sure but surely 'his sport' should have a global context, not just a parochial British context. Sure the people we are talking about are all Brits, but their impact surely should be global for them to have 'delivered more for his sport than any other brit in modern times', which was the quote we are talking about.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sports Personality of the Year
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2016, 03:44:14 PM »
Sure but surely 'his sport' should have a global context, not just a parochial British context. Sure the people we are talking about are all Brits, but their impact surely should be global for them to have 'delivered more for his sport than any other brit in modern times', which was the quote we are talking about.
except we are on a thread about the Sports Personality of the Year, and Murray was awarded it as the British SPotY!

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sports Personality of the Year
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2016, 03:48:57 PM »
except we are on a thread about the Sports Personality of the Year, and Murray was awarded it as the British SPotY!
Indeed, but this little 'sub discussion' was about Anchorman's claim that:

'Murry delivered more for his sport than any other brit in modern times ...'

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sports Personality of the Year
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2016, 03:58:14 PM »
Indeed, but this little 'sub discussion' was about Anchorman's claim that:

'Murry delivered more for his sport than any other brit in modern times ...'
which is in the context of the thread, and says Brit. So it is in a British context.  It doesn't seem to relate to the greatest British sportsman ever, nor to the Brit who has done more for their sport in a world context, whatever that might mean.