Patriotism

[BashfulAnthony]

Well, calling someone unpatriotic is very negative.   I don't remember any posts where that happened, but it's a kind of poison in the middle of a discussion.     It's also farcical, and unthinking.

It's only poison, unthinking and farcical because you don't agree.   Why, specifically, is it those things.

[Nearly Sane]

It is not nonsense! The Referendum is OVER!!  We are now batting on the same side, or should be, ie, for the best interests of UK!

Yes, and what people think is in the best interests of the UK is very different. That the referendum has been held does nothing to change that.

[Aruntraveller]

It is not nonsense! The Referendum is OVER!!  We are now batting on the same side, or should be, ie, for the best interests of UK!

OK - I think the best interests of the UK are served by staying within the Single market. How is that being unpatriotic?

It ensures continuity of trade with the EU. It ensures a certain level of certainty in business. It ensures some stability within our own economy.

And yet, hard Brexiters want us out of the single market. Why am I unpatriotic and they are patriotic?

[Nearly Sane]

OK - I think the best interests of the UK are served by staying within the Single market. How is that being unpatriotic?

It ensures continuity of trade with the EU. It ensures a certain level of certainty in business. It ensures some stability within our own economy.

And yet, hard Brexiters want us out of the single market. Why am I unpatriotic and they are patriotic?

This is the sort of issue which underlines the vacuity of the Brexit is Brexit slogan.

[wigginhall]

It's only poison, unthinking and farcical because you don't agree.   Why, specifically, is it those things.

I see you are moving the goal-posts now.   You were talking about negativity, and my point is that you are being very negative, if you are accusing someone of being unpatriotic.   

[Aruntraveller]

This is the sort of issue which underlines the vacuity of the Brexit is Brexit slogan.

I know. Head meet wall. Wall meet head.

[BashfulAnthony]

Yes, and what people think is in the best interests of the UK is very different. That the referendum has been held does nothing to change that.

Clear.  You, apparently a Remainer, lost the Referendum, but are not prepared to stand by your country in its attempts to get the best deals we can.  Very patriotic and positive, that!

[BashfulAnthony]

I see you are moving the goal-posts now.   You were talking about negativity, and my point is that you are being very negative, if you are accusing someone of being unpatriotic.

Why is saying someone is unpatriotic being negative?  It is a simple statement of fact.

[BashfulAnthony]

This is the sort of issue which underlines the vacuity of the Brexit is Brexit slogan.

I haven' been referring to specific issues.  I am saying, have said, that we should stand by our country and its negotiators in landing a good deal.

[Nearly Sane]

I know. Head meet wall. Wall meet head.

I find the idea that after a referendum people are supposed to magically on the same side bizarre. I am on that basis seemingly meant to believe in first past the post, no to Scottish independence, and yes to Brexit. The referendums do not change my views, just as having a general election does not mean I an supposed to support the current govt. I also can disagree with some of the proposals put forward by people theoretically on the 'same side' as me. So, for example, I am not a fan of a second referendum on any deal because I don't see how that works. If we say no to the deal, it's not a no to Brexit and I don't think we can expect the EU to continually be on negotiations til we get it right.

[Nearly Sane]

I haven' been referring to specific issues.  I am saying, have said, that we should stand by our country and its negotiators in landing a good deal.

and if we think their aims are not sensible then we say that. This is all about specific issues because Brexit means Brexit is vacuous. It's specific issues all the way down

[Nearly Sane]

Why is saying someone is unpatriotic being negative?  It is a simple statement of fact.

can you stop abusing the word fact when you mean it's a simple statement of your opinion.

Further, your opinion is that people should be patriotic and in saying that someone is unpatriotic that they are doing something you think us wrong. By definition from your own position you are using it negatively.

[BashfulAnthony]

I find the idea that after a referendum people are supposed to magically on the same side bizarre. I am on that basis seemingly meant to believe in first past the post, no to Scottish independence, and yes to Brexit. The referendums do not change my views, just as having a general election does not mean I an supposed to support the current govt. I also can disagree with some of the proposals put forward by people theoretically on the 'same side' as me. So, for example, I am not a fan of a second referendum on any deal because I don't see how that works. If we say no to the deal, it's not a no to Brexit and I don't think we can expect the EU to continually be on negotiations til we get it right.

I largely agree with much of that;  but the big difference between this issue and say, a General Election, is that this is a once-in-a-lifetime issue, and it seems to me that we should all stand together for the better good.

[Nearly Sane]

Clear.  You, apparently a Remainer, lost the Referendum, but are not prepared to stand by your country in its attempts to get the best deals we can.  Very patriotic and positive, that!

referendums do not change opinions if I think something is not in the interests of the country, then it is still my opinion. I also think that some of those who are in charge of these negotiations ate highly questionable. And that could be the case even had I voted to leave.

[Maeght]

I haven' been referring to specific issues.  I am saying, have said, that we should stand by our country and its negotiators in landing a good deal.

What do you mean by 'stand by our country'?

It is not a problem with someone expressing their views about issues such as Brexit. If their views differ from the majority then so what? Patriotism is an over hyped over blown concept. Clear rational thinking, the rule of law and freedom to express ones views is much more important.

[BashfulAnthony]

I know. Head meet wall. Wall meet head.

A comment that could just as easily be aimed at Remainers.

[Gordon]

I largely agree with much of that;  but the big difference between this issue and say, a General Election, is that this is a once-in-a-lifetime issue, and it seems to me that we should all stand together for the better good.

That depends though on whether or not you assess Brexit as being the better option: the majority here in Scotland clearly didn't.

[Nearly Sane]

I largely agree with much of that;  but the big difference between this issue and say, a General Election, is that this is a once-in-a-lifetime issue, and it seems to me that we should all stand together for the better good.

For a start it is not a single issue because there are lots of types of Brexit. Both sides in the referendum were perforce broad churches with multiple views on the way forward.

Further that it is a single issue in any sense seems irrelevant. It still doesn't change my view of what is best for the country.

[Aruntraveller]

A comment that could just as easily be aimed at Remainers.

WUM

[BashfulAnthony]

WUM

We're descending to ya-boo sucks level now, are we?

[BashfulAnthony]

That depends though on whether or not you assess Brexit as being the better o

Scotland is part of the UK, and like it or not, they have to stand by the majority decision, like everyone else.

[Aruntraveller]

We're descending to ya-boo sucks level now, are we?

I like to think I can sink to your level occasionally.

[BashfulAnthony]

That depends though on whether or not you assess Brexit as being the better option: the majority here in Scotland clearly didn't.

Scotland is part of the UK, and has to stand by the Referendum result, like it or not, just like everyone else.

[BashfulAnthony]

I like to think I can sink to your level occasionally.

Occasionally??

[wigginhall]

It worries me as we see this in the US, where patriotism is being used by Trump to denigrate all kinds of people.  But this is the country of McCarthy, who also used the p word to disastrous effect.   As Maeght said, it destroys reasoned debate.   'You don't agree with me?   You're unpatriotic'.