Patriotism

[Nearly Sane]

Scotland is part of the UK, and has to stand by the Referendum result, like it or not, just like everyone else.

Just to note this is not factually correct. No one 'has to' stand by the result as the referendum is advisory only.

[wigginhall]

I was going to tell Trent to ignore it, as it is a classic WUM attack, but then again, I am not noted for not rising to the bait!

[Aruntraveller]

I was going to tell Trent to ignore it, as it is a classic WUM attack, but then again, I am not noted for not rising to the bait!

I was trying but

[BashfulAnthony]

Just to note this is not factually correct. No one 'has to' stand by the result as the referendum is advisory only.

Everyone of any note considers the Refendum as binding now;  apart from the Remain losers who are finding democracy hard to deal with.

[Aruntraveller]

Anyway to haul us back to patriotism Anthony stated that it is:

"vigorous support of one's country."

So if Anthony's country is engaged in genocide, or the persecution of Christians I have to assume he is ok with that.

My country right or wrong and all that.

[Nearly Sane]

Everyone of any note considers the Refendum as binding now;  apart from the Remain losers who are finding democracy hard to deal with.

then everyone of note (whoever they might be) is factually incorrect. It is and was advisory. You can certainly argue that it should be followed but not that it has to be legally.

[wigginhall]

Anyway to haul us back to patriotism Anthony stated that it is:

So if Anthony's country is engaged in genocide, or the persecution of Christians I have to assume he is ok with that.

My country right or wrong and all that.

Yes, this shows the idiocy of the patriotism gibe.  Or what about the Iraq war?   Was I supposed to support it, because it was official government action?   British history is full of people who dared to swim against the tide, and no doubt, might be labelled with some nasty word. 

[BashfulAnthony]

Anyway to haul us back to patriotism Anthony stated that it is:

So if Anthony's country is engaged in genocide, or the persecution of Christians I have to assume he is ok with that.

My country right or wrong and all that.

 I am not ok with anything of the sort, and don't be so offensive, not to mention absurd.  We are discussing the Referendum and its and its implications with regard to patriotism towards your country in a difficult time for us all.  Please don't try and suggest anything else.  I had thought better of you.

[Brownie]

Bash, it isn't right to accuse people of lacking 'patriotism' just because of one issue.

[Nearly Sane]

I am not ok with anything of the sort, and don't be so offensive, not to mention absurd.  We are discussing the Referendum and its and its implications with regard to patriotism towards your country in a difficult time for us all.  Please don't try and suggest anything else.  I had thought better of you.

While I don't think for a minute that you would support those things, and I am sure trent doesn't either, he's using it as a form of reductio to illustrate what he sees as being problematic with position you are expressing.

[BashfulAnthony]

Yes, this shows the idiocy of the patriotism gibe.  Or what about the Iraq war?   Was I supposed to support it, because it was official government action?   British history is full of people who dared to swim against the tide, and no doubt, might be labelled with some nasty word.

Your analogy is false.  The Iraq war was not a matter of this country's survival in the modern world, but in the final analysis was a moral issue. I had no doubt we were wrong there, as we were with Afghanistan, and, indeed, Libya.    The referendum does not come into that category.

[BashfulAnthony]

Bash, it isn't right to accuse people of lacking 'patriotism' just because of one issue.

Why?

[Nearly Sane]

Bash, it isn't right to accuse people of lacking 'patriotism' just because of one issue.

it is in my case since the one issue is I am not patriotic in the sense BA uses it. I see that as a good thing though

[BashfulAnthony]

then everyone of note (whoever they might be) is factually incorrect. It is and was advisory. You can certainly argue that it should be followed but not that it has to be legally.

The Government is taking the Referendum as binding, as the will of the people, whether it was technically advisory or not.  Even Jeremy agrees with that.

[Nearly Sane]

Your analogy is false.  The Iraq war was not a matter of this country's survival in the modern world, but in the final analysis was a moral issue. I had no doubt we were wrong there, as we were with Afghanistan, and, indeed, Libya.    The referendum does not come into that category.

well I don't see Brexit as being about the country's survival in the modern world, nor do I see the wars mentioned as being  simply moral ones, nor have you made the case that there is this difference between moral/political issues that mean people should shut up about one and not the other.

[BashfulAnthony]

it is in my case since the one issue is I am not patriotic in the sense BA uses it. I see that as a good thing though

Are you clear in what sense I am using it?

[Nearly Sane]

The Government is taking the Referendum as binding, as the will of the people, whether it was technically advisory or not.  Even Jeremy agrees with that.

They are acting on it, that does not mean it was. Factually it was not and is not.

[BashfulAnthony]

well I don't see Brexit as being about the country's survival in the modern world, nor do I see the wars mentioned as being  simply moral ones, nor have you made the case that there is this difference between moral/political issues that mean people should shut up about one and not the other.

 I never said that you should shut up about one and not the other.  How did you come to that conclusion?  I am saying that they should be viewed from different perspectives:  one as a moral issue, the other as a domestic political issue.

[Nearly Sane]

Are you clear in what sense I am using it?

I was using your earlier definition. You can see why I don't qualify by my first post on the thread.

[wigginhall]

Your analogy is false.  The Iraq war was not a matter of this country's survival in the modern world, but in the final analysis was a moral issue. I had no doubt we were wrong there, as we were with Afghanistan, and, indeed, Libya.    The referendum does not come into that category.

That's just your opinion, though.   There are people, believe or not, who think Brexit is damaging to the UK.  Oh I forgot, they aren't patriots, because they disagree with you.    This is totalitarian thinking.   

[BashfulAnthony]

They are acting on it, that does not mean it was. Factually it was not and is not.

I am not disputing that it was advisory:  the advice the Government has gleaned from the clear majority is that we should leave the EU.

And there I take a  break in order to go and peel the spuds for dinner!

[wigginhall]

I have to laugh when people talk about Remain losers, who should shut up.   Euro-skeptics have spent 40 years complaining about the EU,. but then I suppose they are patriots, so that's OK.

[Nearly Sane]

I never said that you should shut up about one and not the other.  How did you come to that conclusion?  I am saying that they should be viewed from different perspectives:  one as a moral issue, the other as a domestic political issue.

Well you think that Trent should behave differently and not say what he thinks because that is unpatriotic in the case of the referendum but not in the cases of the war. That seems to be saying what I suggested.

Again simply saying that one thing is a moral decision and another a political one (not sure what the addition of 'domestic' is intended to do there), is not making a case for them being treated differently in the way you are suggesting. Indeed it appears that you are in a form of circular argument where you say they should be treated differently and when asked why say because they are different.


All that is leaving aside that you have not made the case that they can actually be described as moral issues or political issues. Indeed the idea that you think Trent should behave in a certain way here seems to make it sound as if you see this as a moral issue.

[Nearly Sane]

I am not disputing that it was advisory:  the advice the Government has gleaned from the clear majority is that we should leave the EU.

And there I take a  break in order to go and peel the spuds for dinner!

your statement was that everyone had to accept it, they don't therefore I assume you retract the statement

[Gordon]

There is also the problem of changing boundaries and conflicting political issues surrounding the object of the patriotism.

The current Brexit situation highlights the difference between Scotland and rUK on this issue so it would seem inconsistent for those of us Scots who are pro-EU and pro-Independence to be patriotic about a UK that on this issue doesn't reflect the consensus here and seems to be working against our long term interests. If we were to fall in line with Brexit out of UK patriotism alone, as BA seems to suggest, this is surely inconsistent with a political consensus in Scotland that is predominantly negative in its assessment of the practical and political issues of Brexit on Scotland.

In this scenario it seems patriotism directed towards the UK is both redundant and incongruous. That some of us regard the Brexit outcome as fundamentally unacceptable doesn't allow us to adopt a 'my country right or wrong' attitude based on patriotism alone: we'd be scoundrels to think that way.