Author Topic: Evangelical extremist?  (Read 44963 times)

Brownie

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Re: Evangelical extremist?
« Reply #175 on: December 22, 2016, 04:40:51 PM »
I agree that is true for some of the more strident anti-gays.
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Hope

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Re: Evangelical extremist?
« Reply #176 on: December 22, 2016, 06:26:25 PM »
There is no point - these churches should also resign from acting as legal registrars.
That could be problematical, Gordon.  No churches are registered as legal registrars. 

Church of England (and possibly Church in Wales) clergy are trained as registrars as part of their training.  From what I have been told by such folkk (including my father who was a CoE cleric when he was alive) that element of their training is longer and in more depth than any other registrar training.  Clergy from other denominations and all laity can only become registrars by following that lower level of training - usually put on by local authorities.
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Gordon

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Re: Evangelical extremist?
« Reply #177 on: December 22, 2016, 08:06:16 PM »
That could be problematical, Gordon.  No churches are registered as legal registrars.

I presumed you'd work out that I was referring to clergy: seems I was wrong. 

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Church of England (and possibly Church in Wales) clergy are trained as registrars as part of their training.  From what I have been told by such folkk (including my father who was a CoE cleric when he was alive) that element of their training is longer and in more depth than any other registrar training.  Clergy from other denominations and all laity can only become registrars by following that lower level of training - usually put on by local authorities.

Super: CofE clergy are no doubt the type of registrars Harrods would sell you.

That isn't the problem though: the problem is they've been allowed to discriminate as regards who they are prepared to provide the marriage service for, which is shameful. Still - must look on the bright side in that the institutional homophobia of the likes of the CofE confirms its growing irrelevance and hastens its demise as a socially relevant institution.

Fortunately many Christians aren't tarred with the same homophobic brush that afflicts the organisations some of them belong to.   
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 08:09:26 PM by Gordon »

Brownie

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Re: Evangelical extremist?
« Reply #178 on: December 22, 2016, 08:20:26 PM »
Some CofE clergy do peform SSM, though.

In the distant past, there were quite a few who wouldn't marry anyone who had been divorced.  Not all.

Those were the rules.

There will always be clergy prepared to thumb their noses at the hierarchy (I nearly said "Bishopric" but thought better of it).   Pioneers I suppose.

I'd have thought, if someone really wants to marry in church, or be married by a member of the clergy, it wouldn't be difficult to find a place or person.
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Anchorman

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Re: Evangelical extremist?
« Reply #179 on: December 22, 2016, 09:25:10 PM »
CofS ministers can't though. It's one of the fankles the Kirk manages to get itself into....marriage is between man and woman. Gay marriage is not permitted in the Kirk. Yet Ministers in a gay relationship are permitted (subject to approval by congregation, Kirk Session and Presbytery. It's a Kirk thing. Don't try to understand it - I've tried to fall asleep in too many Presbytery meetings to realise that some things are beyond our understanding.
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Hope

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Re: Evangelical extremist?
« Reply #180 on: December 23, 2016, 08:52:55 AM »
Super: CofE clergy are no doubt the type of registrars Harrods would sell you.
I very much doubt it: too many CoE clergy are involved in working with the poor and needy for Harrods to be interested in them.

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That isn't the problem though: the problem is they've been allowed to discriminate as regards who they are prepared to provide the marriage service for, which is shameful.
So, you are suggesting that they should be forced to be hypocrites, eh?

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Still - must look on the bright side in that the institutional homophobia of the likes of the CofE confirms its growing irrelevance and hastens its demise as a socially relevant institution.
Interestingly, Gordon, stats suggest that it is that part of the CoE that you are grousing about - the evangelical wing - that is currently growing.

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Fortunately many Christians aren't tarred with the same homophobic brush that afflicts the organisations some of them belong to.
And those you describe tend to belong to the sections of the Church that are becoming scarcer.
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Hope

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Re: Evangelical extremist?
« Reply #181 on: December 23, 2016, 08:55:22 AM »
Some CofE clergy do peform SSM, though.
AS I've pointed out to Gordon, the majority of such clergy are associated with the higher Anglican groups, who stats suggest are the ones that are shrinking fastest.
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Spud

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Re: Evangelical extremist?
« Reply #182 on: December 23, 2016, 05:22:23 PM »
I'm sure there are, but that is a personal matter for them and no doubt there are a variety of options for people to discuss their situation with supportive others should they wish to do so.
 
No idea: it depends on the person and what other options are available to them. For someone who takes religion seriously I'd have thought that non-judgmental religious organisations could well be useful.

Don't forget, Spud, homosexual people may well be quite happy as they are - just like heterosexual people.

I think what I'm getting at is that for these people (same sex attracted people who wish to abstain), acting on same sex attraction is a temptation. If they were members of churches where the doctrine was that it was ok to act on SSA, it would be like having an alcoholics anonymous meeting in a pub where people were drinking alcohol, or someone who is trying to give up smoking socializing with people who were smoking. While going through the withdrawal process they need an environment where the temptation is removed as much as possible, which builds them up to be able to resist in the outside world where they will experience temptation. So this seems like a good reason to allow certain organizations to exclude same sex relationships.

Regarding the link you gave on the legislation (thanks for that): it says that Canon law is part of Common law. Doesn't this imply that SSM is against already existing statutory law, since it is not permitted in Canon law? I googled the relationship between Canon and Common law but couldn't find anything to confirm or refute this.

Gordon

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Re: Evangelical extremist?
« Reply #183 on: December 23, 2016, 05:43:53 PM »
I think what I'm getting at is that for these people (same sex attracted people who wish to abstain), acting on same sex attraction is a temptation.

Or they are acting quite reasonably and in line with their sexual orientation. I suspect you are lumbering under the misapprehension that homosexuality is akin to both 'wrongness' or some kind of disease: I think you need to do some more thinking on these aspects.

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If they were members of churches where the doctrine was that it was ok to act on SSA, it would be like having an alcoholics anonymous meeting in a pub where people were drinking alcohol, or someone who is trying to give up smoking socializing with people who were smoking. While going through the withdrawal process they need an environment where the temptation is removed as much as possible, which builds them up to be able to resist in the outside world where they will experience temptation. So this seems like a good reason to allow certain organizations to exclude same sex relationships.

Nope: your summary here sounds like unpleasant and simplistic homophobia.

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Regarding the link you gave on the legislation (thanks for that): it says that Canon law is part of Common law. Doesn't this imply that SSM is against already existing statutory law, since it is not permitted in Canon law? I googled the relationship between Canon and Common law but couldn't find anything to confirm or refute this.

Don't know, but I'd imagine 'Canon Law' invokes the internal rules of the C of E that may well have some roots in parliamentary legislation from historical times when organised religion did indeed have influence: those times are gone, thank goodness, and we now have legal SSM despite the C of E objections.

You'll need to check this out yourself - as you can imagine the 'Canon Law' of the C of E is irrelevant to an atheist Scot like me.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 08:13:53 PM by Gordon »

Anchorman

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Re: Evangelical extremist?
« Reply #184 on: December 23, 2016, 08:10:10 PM »
I was going to point that out, Gordon. The CofE canon law has no jurisdiction outside England. Nor shouldit (Mind you, no church should have jurisdiction outside the confines of its denomination in any case.)
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Hope

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Re: Evangelical extremist?
« Reply #185 on: December 24, 2016, 01:17:13 PM »
(Mind you, no church should have jurisdiction outside the confines of its denomination in any case.)
I think that this is why many CoE members and clergy have been arguing for disestablishment for as long as I can remember.  What I'm not quite sure about is the history behind the 'effective' disestablishment of both the Church of Wales (now known as the Church in Wales) and the Church of Scotland.

An interesting, albeit fairly simplistic explanation of the CinW from wikipedia  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_in_Wales#Disestablishment
« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 01:19:58 PM by Hope »
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Brownie

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Re: Evangelical extremist?
« Reply #186 on: December 24, 2016, 01:25:12 PM »
AS I've pointed out to Gordon, the majority of such clergy are associated with the higher Anglican groups, who stats suggest are the ones that are shrinking fastest.

Yes you did say that and I didn't know they were shrinking fastest, nor that high Anglicans were more inclined to marry people of same sex, so I've learned something today.

Yet the rules are the same for all branches of the CofE.  It's a question of whether or not an individual clergyperson is prepared to break a rule and how their parish/congregation feel about it.

I've heard of what some people call "Middle of the road" Anglican clergy performing SSM.

In days gone by, some of the high Anglicans were against women priests, had an organisation called "Forward in Faith".  Not all of course, but quite a few.  I am not up to date with all that and don't know if the org.  still exists.  I will google them forthwith and find out.

Certainly quite a lot of high Anglican priests are gay men but I am not sure that would influence them to marry people in church.  A blessing maybe.

It's a shame if they are a dying breed (not the bigoted ones), because traditionally they did sterling work amongst the poor and were a beacon of light in underprivileged areas.  They added some beauty to otherwise drab existences and parishioners of all shades of opinion found the church to be a centre of community.

Times change though.
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Hope

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Re: Evangelical extremist?
« Reply #187 on: December 24, 2016, 01:46:51 PM »
In days gone by, some of the high Anglicans were against women priests, had an organisation called "Forward in Faith".  Not all of course, but quite a few.  I am not up to date with all that and don't know if the org.  still exists.  I will google them forthwith and find out.
Whether that particular grouping still exists, I'm not sure, but there are still groupings with the same aims.

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It's a shame if they are a dying breed (not the bigoted ones), because traditionally they did sterling work amongst the poor and were a beacon of light in underprivileged areas.  They added some beauty to otherwise drab existences and parishioners of all shades of opinion found the church to be a centre of community.

Times change though.
Ironically, historically, evangelicals have also been heavily involved in caring for the down-trodden and disenfranchised.  Think of Wilberforce and Shaftesbury - and the Slavery bill.  Nowadays, an increasing number of evangelical churches run homelessness projects, debt and budgetting advice programmes, rehab projects, etc.  Unfortunately, as with society at large, there are still those who feel that their most important work is looking after number 1.
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Brownie

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Re: Evangelical extremist?
« Reply #188 on: December 24, 2016, 02:45:26 PM »
Well it isn't a competition, Hope, and all branches of the faith are involved in helping others.  I was merely stating that the High Anglicans were particularly known for it at one time in deprived areas, but that doesn't detract from others.

Indeed, the Quakers have always been at the forefront when it comes to putting themselves on the line wherever a need is perceived, the Salvation Army of course and we mustn't forget non-Christian groups - Sikhs for example.

(PS:  Found the 'Forward in Faith' website and it seems they are still going strong, you just don't hear about them so much nowadays.   They have made a statement about marriage, which is quite conservative.
http://www.forwardinfaith.com/aboutus.php )



« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 02:49:14 PM by Brownie »
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Hope

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Re: Evangelical extremist?
« Reply #189 on: December 24, 2016, 03:02:42 PM »
Well it isn't a competition, Hope, and all branches of the faith are involved in helping others.  I was merely stating that the High Anglicans were particularly known for it at one time in deprived areas, but that doesn't detract from others.
I agree, but there are many who seem to think that High Anglicans concentrate on social action, whilst evangelicals concentrate on 'spiritual' action.  Ironically, the SCM (Student Christian Mission) which promoted the socialside of the gospel amongst the Anglo-Catholics and High Anglicans in the early 20th century was only set up in the late 19th century - dedicated to overseas missionary action initially.

http://www.movement.org.uk/about-us/history - makes an interesting read.  Note its relationship to the NUS!!
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Brownie

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Re: Evangelical extremist?
« Reply #190 on: December 24, 2016, 03:26:16 PM »
I didn't think that, Hope.

The history of the various branches of Christendom is very interesting.  Still, we live in the here and now.
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Spud

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Re: Evangelical extremist?
« Reply #191 on: December 26, 2016, 11:09:40 AM »
Nope: your summary here sounds like unpleasant and simplistic homophobia

Going back to your view that "these churches should also resign from acting as legal registrars", I think that this is not necessary, the reason being that whatever one's orientation, sexual activity is not necessary for an individual's survival, and therefore it is not wrong to form a judgment on the morality of homosexual activity. Churches are therefore at liberty to refrain from marrying same-sex couples; it is right that they continue to act as legal registrars, however, because heterosexual marriage is the foundation of human survival as a whole.

Shaker

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Re: Evangelical extremist?
« Reply #192 on: December 26, 2016, 11:36:39 AM »
Whether that particular grouping still exists, I'm not sure, but there are still groupings with the same aims.
Undoubtedly - the Coalition for Marriage still exists, even though equal marriage is a done deal.

Clearly, some people have difficulty coping with reality and with the fact that history and society have moved on greatly for the better and rendered their toxic and ugly little cliques irrelevant.
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Gordon

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Re: Evangelical extremist?
« Reply #193 on: December 26, 2016, 11:59:03 AM »
Going back to your view that "these churches should also resign from acting as legal registrars", I think that this is not necessary, the reason being that whatever one's orientation, sexual activity is not necessary for an individual's survival, and therefore it is not wrong to form a judgment on the morality of homosexual activity. Churches are therefore at liberty to refrain from marrying same-sex couples; it is right that they continue to act as legal registrars, however, because heterosexual marriage is the foundation of human survival as a whole.

Spud - this is about equality and not about survival, where the latter is a daft concern anyway given the incidence of heterosexuality vs homosexuality.

ippy

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Re: Evangelical extremist?
« Reply #194 on: December 26, 2016, 05:07:26 PM »
AS I've pointed out to Gordon, the majority of such clergy are associated with the higher Anglican groups, who stats suggest are the ones that are shrinking fastest.

'Higher', Anglican groups?

ippy

Brownie

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Re: Evangelical extremist?
« Reply #195 on: December 26, 2016, 07:14:58 PM »
It's the incense wot does it, ippy.
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Spud

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Re: Evangelical extremist?
« Reply #196 on: December 26, 2016, 07:50:09 PM »
Spud - this is about equality and not about survival, where the latter is a daft concern anyway given the incidence of heterosexuality vs homosexuality.
I accept the principle that discrimination or abuse should not be tolerated,
but how do we bring about equality for some without denying it to others and exchanging one form of discrimination for another?
Suppose the players in a rugby team are compelled to wear Stonewall ribbons during a match. (Bear in mind that Stonewall not only stands against discrimination and abuse but also stands for acceptance of the gay lifestyle). There might be one player who has experienced homosexuality but walked away from it. Should he be dropped from the team for refusing to wear the ribbon?
Or suppose a teacher who has walked away from homosexuality refuses to teach that the gay lifestyle is acceptable. Should that teacher lose his job?

And should heterosexual people who refuse to promote the gay lifestyle also be discriminated against?

ippy

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Re: Evangelical extremist?
« Reply #197 on: December 26, 2016, 08:21:52 PM »
It's the incense wot does it, ippy.

Perhaps not enough deodorant?

ippy

ad_orientem

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Re: Evangelical extremist?
« Reply #198 on: December 26, 2016, 08:46:41 PM »
It's the incense wot does it, ippy.

Hardly. How do you account for Orthodoxy or traditional Catholicism?
« Last Edit: December 26, 2016, 09:30:00 PM by ad_orientem »
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Gordon

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Re: Evangelical extremist?
« Reply #199 on: December 26, 2016, 08:52:37 PM »
I accept the principle that discrimination or abuse should not be tolerated,

Good - well done.

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but how do we bring about equality for some without denying it to others and exchanging one form of discrimination for another?

By looking at various aspects of society and identifying where there are forms of discrimination that sees some disadvantaged compared to others on the basis of a characteristic where a reasoned basis to maintain the discrimination cannot be convincingly demonstrated and where social attitudes have changed in support of removing the discrimination: for example, apartheid or restrictions on legal marriage.

Some may disagree on a personal basis but their preferences may be deemed to be less relevant than addressing the inequality on a society-wide basis, hence SSM is now legal where we both live, and especially where objections are based on fallacious arguments from authority where, ironically, what opponents regard as being authoritative (in this case 'scripture') isn't binding on the rest of us and, moreover, where entering into a SSM is easily avoided by those who do object to it.       

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Suppose the players in a rugby team are compelled to wear Stonewall ribbons during a match. (Bear in mind that Stonewall not only stands against discrimination and abuse but also stands for acceptance of the gay lifestyle). There might be one player who has experienced homosexuality but walked away from it. Should he be dropped from the team for refusing to wear the ribbon?

I realise that this is a thought experiment, but it does seem an unrealistic one bearing in mind the current problems football has with abuse and also the efforts being made to counter homophobia within the game - clearly football has its problems to solve - but I'd imagine that a player not buying into the ethos of their club is effectively dropping themselves.   

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Or suppose a teacher who has walked away from homosexuality refuses to teach that the gay lifestyle is acceptable. Should that teacher lose his job?

I think you might be using the term 'acceptable' wrongly: being homosexual is clearly 'acceptable' bearing in mind that it has been decriminalised (for consenting adults) and since homosexual people can now marry each other in many legislatures to the extent it is legally no different to heterosexual marriage. The personal background of the teacher isn't a factor here, since their fitness to teach 'modern & social studies' is a professional matter for them and their employer.

The key point is whether or not the syllabus to be taught involves recognising that homosexual relationships are an aspect of society-at-large, and since this is the case then teachers can do no other if the issue is contained in the syllabus that prescribes what is to be taught. However, in doing so they aren't promoting homosexuality any more than they are promoting a particular political party by discussing the various political philosophies that young people will encounter as an aspect of society-at-large.

I suspect you are conflating education about homosexuality being an aspect of society with the promotion of homosexuality - where the latter would rightly see teachers sacked.           

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And should heterosexual people who refuse to promote the gay lifestyle also be discriminated against?

Who is doing or advocating this?

All you are being asked to do, Spud, is not discriminate on the basis of the sexual orientation of another people: you aren't being required to approve, and your personal disapproval is your problem.