Author Topic: The Illusion of Self  (Read 44664 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #400 on: December 31, 2016, 12:56:05 PM »
Vlad,

Evasion noted.

Who'd have thought it eh?
Hillside............ unfortunately for you, in terms of Feser you have had no time to set up your usual defence for your opinion of him. You cannot on this occasion claim that you have done anything but merely assert Fesers lack of qualification to a PHd.

You could of course treat us to your demolition of his arguments and mine now...but experience teaches me not to hold my breath on this.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #401 on: December 31, 2016, 01:04:42 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Hillside............ unfortunately for you, in terms of Feser you have had no time to set up your usual defence for your opinion of him. You cannot on this occasion claim that you have done anything but merely assert Fesers lack of qualification to a PHd.

Actually I have critiqued him elsewhere but, in terms of the Reply you cited, that's right - I did "merely assert Fesers (sic) lack of qualification to (sic) a PHd (sic)".

The point though is that that's still not what ad hominem means.

You really struggle with this don't you.

Quote
You could of course treat us to your demolition of his arguments and mine now...but experience teaches me not to hold my breath on this.

I've done that many times. That you just lie about it when your arguments are rebutted though is a different matter.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #402 on: December 31, 2016, 01:06:35 PM »
Vlad,

PS Any thoughts by the way on your volte-face about this god of yours no longer being the creator of everything?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #403 on: December 31, 2016, 01:13:03 PM »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #404 on: December 31, 2016, 01:18:06 PM »
Vlad,

PS Any thoughts by the way on your volte-face about this god of yours no longer being the creator of everything?
I think you've missed a point I've made a few times before.

The question of why there is something rather than nothing is not the same as how does something pop out of nothing''.

Also I think you and I have been aware of the term ''ground of being'' prior to Feser popping up from nowhere.

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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #405 on: December 31, 2016, 01:26:13 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
I think you've missed a point I've made a few times before.

The question of why there is something rather than nothing is not the same as how does something pop out of nothing''.

Also I think you and I have been aware of the term ''ground of being'' prior to Feser popping up from nowhere.

Yeah yeah - so back to the question you've just ducked again. Previously you asserted a god who created everything. Now you seem to accept that energy is infinitely old, therefore your god didn't create it.

That's a remarkable change of claim, yet you seem to want to elide the two versions as if nothing had happened.

Look, I'll even simplify it for you: do you think your god created everything (old Vladdism), or do you think your god didn't create energy but just decided to tinker with it once he stumbled across it (new Vladdism)?
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 01:28:34 PM by bluehillside »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #406 on: December 31, 2016, 01:37:27 PM »
Vlad,

Yeah yeah - so back to the question you've just ducked again. Previously you asserted a god who created everything. Now you seem to accept that energy is infinitely old, therefore your god didn't create it.

That's a remarkable change of claim, yet you seem to want to elide the two versions as if nothing had happened.

Look, I'll even simplify it for you: do you think your god created everything (old Vladdism), or do you think your god didn't create energy but just decided to tinker with it once he stumbled across it (new Vladdism)?
You still aren't making the distinction between the two questions

Why is there anything and not nothing and how does anything pop out of nothing.

The context of the first question is that something is not dependent on time or finitude or infinitude.

That cannot be said of the second.

I think you have described my position as 'the polish plumber situation that God finds energy and tinkers with it.
Firstly actual power never finds anything least of all already realised potential. You assume actual finds something rather than causes something.

I think your model might have the derived power changing the actual power and misunderstands energy as essentially something static rather than a change or transfer. But i'm open to an alternative argument
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #407 on: December 31, 2016, 01:45:54 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
You still aren't making the distinction between the two questions

Why is there anything and not nothing and how does anything pop out of nothing.

The context of the first question is that something is not dependent on time or finitude or infinitude.

That cannot be said of the second.

I think you have described my position as 'the polish plumber situation that God finds energy and tinkers with it.
Firstly actual power never finds anything least of all already realised potential. You assume actual finds something rather than causes something.

I think your model might have the derived power changing the actual power and misunderstands energy as essentially something static rather than a change or transfer. But i'm open to an alternative argument

You’re still ducking and diving. No-one is asking why anything. What you’re actually being asked is a what question: what did this god of yours do - create energy or just tinker with it?

It’s a simple enough question I’d have thought, so why all the prevarication and obfuscation?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #408 on: December 31, 2016, 01:49:08 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
LOL

“The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which low-ability individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability as much higher than it really is. Dunning and Kruger attributed this bias to a metacognitive incapacity, on the part of those with low ability, to recognize their ineptitude and evaluate their competence accurately. Their research also suggests corollaries: high-ability individuals may underestimate their relative competence and may erroneously assume that tasks which are easy for them are also easy for others.”

(Wiki)
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #409 on: December 31, 2016, 02:03:24 PM »
Vlad,

You’re still ducking and diving. No-one is asking why anything. What you’re actually being asked is a what question: what did this god of yours do - create energy or just tinker with it?

It’s a simple enough question I’d have thought, so why all the prevarication and obfuscation?

If the chain of events is finite. if the universe changes from nothing material then that is a change and is therefore derived from the actual which was therefore immaterial.
If the universe is infinite. If there has always been the derived then there has always been the actual from which the derived owes it's being(that is logical).

This has been spelt out to you in various ways and is again here.

I guess that answers your question.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #410 on: December 31, 2016, 02:07:31 PM »
Vlad,

“The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which low-ability individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability as much higher than it really is. Dunning and Kruger attributed this bias to a metacognitive incapacity, on the part of those with low ability, to recognize their ineptitude and evaluate their competence accurately. Their research also suggests corollaries: high-ability individuals may underestimate their relative competence and may erroneously assume that tasks which are easy for them are also easy for others.”

(Wiki)
Being one of the ''corollaries'' I recognise I am sometimes guilty of that.
Brains evolved the capacity to integrate multiple multi modal sensory input streams into a single experiential flow eons ago...

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #411 on: December 31, 2016, 02:31:17 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
If the chain of events is finite. if the universe changes from nothing material then that is a change and is therefore derived from the actual which was therefore immaterial.
If the universe is infinite. If there has always been the derived then there has always been the actual from which the derived owes it's being(that is logical).

This has been spelt out to you in various ways and is again here.

I guess that answers your question.

Then, as ever, you guess wrongly. Look, I’ll even put it in capital letters for you this time so you have no excuse for yet more misrepresentation:

DID THIS GOD OF YOURS CREATE ENERGY OR WAS IT THERE ANYWAY?

Clear enough now?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #412 on: December 31, 2016, 02:32:03 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Being one of the ''corollaries'' I recognise I am sometimes guilty of that.

LMAO, ROFL etc etc
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God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #413 on: December 31, 2016, 02:42:59 PM »
Vlad,

Then, as ever, you guess wrongly. Look, I’ll even put it in capital letters for you this time so you have no excuse for yet more misrepresentation:

DID THIS GOD OF YOURS CREATE ENERGY OR WAS IT THERE ANYWAY?

Clear enough now?
Clear enough that you don't understand energy or that you don't understand the concept of being dependent on actual power at ANYtime not just one moment in time.
Energy is change Hillside and change is derived. Can we make it any clearer to you?
Your Polish plumber tinkering with the plumbing analogy is arse clenchingly off the mark.

''No derived without an actual'' Hillside and that is a bottom up argument based on the observation of the derived. I think we can all see you agree with that and have therefore conceded the argument but are locked into the last polishings of your turd.

You don't understand the physics or metaphysics here. Watch Feser again and learn something and then get a basic physics textbook. 
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #414 on: December 31, 2016, 02:48:52 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Clear enough that you don't understand energy or that you don't understand the concept of being dependent on actual power at ANYtime not just one moment in time.
Energy is change Hillside and change is derived. Can we make it any clearer to you?
Your Polish plumber tinkering with the plumbing analogy is arse clenchingly off the mark.


  Hillside and that is a bottom up argument based on the observation of the derived. I think we can all see you agree with that and have therefore conceded the argument but are locked into the last polishings of your turd.

You don't understand the physics or metaphysics here. Watch Feser again and learn something and then get a basic physics textbook.

Perhaps if I put the question in capitals and use each word as a separate line you’ll finally stop ducking and diving and will attempt an answer?

DID

THIS

GOD

OF

YOURS

CREATE

ENERGY

OR

WAS

IT

THERE

ANYWAY?

There are only two possible answers to that question:

Answer 1: God created energy

Answer 2: Energy was there anyway

Which one do you opt for?
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God

Walter

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #415 on: December 31, 2016, 03:01:58 PM »
Clear enough that you don't understand energy or that you don't understand the concept of being dependent on actual power at ANYtime not just one moment in time.
Energy is change Hillside and change is derived. Can we make it any clearer to you?
Your Polish plumber tinkering with the plumbing analogy is arse clenchingly off the mark.

''No derived without an actual'' Hillside and that is a bottom up argument based on the observation of the derived. I think we can all see you agree with that and have therefore conceded the argument but are locked into the last polishings of your turd.

You don't understand the physics or metaphysics here. Watch Feser again and learn something and then get a basic physics textbook.
Are you aware that others are reading this thread but prefer to watch you commit intellectual suicide . I for one will not interfere , ill just carry on watching.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #416 on: December 31, 2016, 03:13:40 PM »
Vlad,

Perhaps if I put the question in capitals and use each word as a separate line you’ll finally stop ducking and diving and will attempt an answer?

DID

THIS

GOD

OF

YOURS

CREATE

ENERGY

OR

WAS

IT

THERE

ANYWAY?

There are only two possible answers to that question:

Answer 1: God created energy

Answer 2: Energy was there anyway


False Dichotomy.

Answer 3: God ''creates''/''sustains'' energy moment by moment.

Answer 4: Without God, no energy.

It has been all spelt out for you Hillside. If you cannot see it and I think you can and all that is stopping from owning up to it because of personal reasons then that is something it is not my place to be correcting you on.

I'm afraid though that your concession to the actual and derived is probably worse than you realise.

Not only then does God create the universe......... he does so moment by moment.

What we don't yet know is whether there is a moment of creation or infinite sustaining/creation.

If you would rather an infinite chain of derived power then that is obviously illogical and you had better start polishing now.

Brains evolved the capacity to integrate multiple multi modal sensory input streams into a single experiential flow eons ago...

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #417 on: December 31, 2016, 03:18:22 PM »
Are you aware that others are reading this thread but prefer to watch you commit intellectual suicide . I for one will not interfere , ill just carry on watching.
I can understand you being pissed off.

However there is no sign of an ''intellectual'' response to what I've written and certainly not from you.
As for those watching Hillside and me I think the best you can depend on is Hillside and there are probably those out there watching him not creating his own intellectual suicide but sustaining it on the same basis that God sustains energy.
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Gordon

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #418 on: December 31, 2016, 03:28:40 PM »
I can understand you being pissed off.

However there is no sign of an ''intellectual'' response to what I've written and certainly not from you.
As for those watching Hillside and me I think the best you can depend on is Hillside and there are probably those out there watching him not creating his own intellectual suicide but sustaining it on the same basis that God sustains energy.

I'd say, Vlad, bearing in mind we are familiar with your 'style', that you have seized upon something you don't understand (because it seems what you've seized upon is highly suspect) and you're gradually working yourself into a frenzy whilst looking foolish in the process.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #419 on: December 31, 2016, 03:30:53 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
False Dichotomy.-.

It’s not a false dichotomy at all, because…

Quote
Answer 3: God ''creates''/''sustains'' energy moment by moment.

In which case if “God” “creates” energy then you opt for option 1; if “God” “sustains” energy though then presumably it was there anyway for him to sustain (ie, option 2).

Which do you prefer?

Quote
Answer 4: Without God, no energy.

In which case energy wasn’t there all along (also option 1).

Quote
It has been all spelt out for you Hillside. If you cannot see it and I think you can and all that is stopping from owning up to it because of personal reasons then that is something it is not my place to be correcting you on.

Nothing has been “spelt out” at all. Your continued ducking and diving is obfuscation, not spelling out.

Quote
I'm afraid though that your concession to the actual and derived is probably worse than you realise.

Did that car crash of a sentence mean something in your head when you wrote it?

Quote
Not only then does God create the universe......... he does so moment by moment.

But by “the universe” are you including or excluding energy from that conjecture?

Quote
What we don't yet know is whether there is a moment of creation or infinite sustaining/creation.

What “we” don’t know is why anyone should take your conjecture “God” seriously at all, let alone your un-argued and un-evidenced notions of how He goes about His supposed activities. 

Quote
If you would rather an infinite chain of derived power then that is obviously illogical and you had better start polishing now.

Actually I’d rather you stopped lying and finally attempted a cogent argument for this god of yours, but as there’s precious little chance of that it seems we’ll have to endure your continued ludicrousnesses, personal re-definitions of terms and endless evasions instead.

Oh well - new year, but same old Vlad eh?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #420 on: December 31, 2016, 03:31:08 PM »
I'd say, Vlad, bearing in mind we are familiar with your 'style', that you have seized upon something you don't understand (because it seems what you've seized upon is highly suspect) and you're gradually working yourself into a frenzy whilst looking foolish in the process.
Assertion with no accompanying justification.
Is any to follow?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #421 on: December 31, 2016, 03:35:34 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
I can understand you being pissed off.

Perhaps if you weren’t pathologically dishonest some of us would be a bit less pissed off?

Quote
However there is no sign of an ''intellectual'' response to what I've written…

Presumably because gibberish can be dismissed out of hand.

Quote
…and certainly not from you.

See above.

Quote
As for those watching Hillside and me I think the best you can depend on is Hillside and there are probably those out there watching him not creating his own intellectual suicide but sustaining it on the same basis that God sustains energy.

And back to Dunning-Kruger we go.

Ah well.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walter

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #422 on: December 31, 2016, 03:41:45 PM »
I can understand you being pissed off.

However there is no sign of an ''intellectual'' response to what I've written and certainly not from you.
As for those watching Hillside and me I think the best you can depend on is Hillside and there are probably those out there watching him not creating his own intellectual suicide but sustaining it on the same basis that God sustains energy.
carry on E-T m

the amusement potential (energy, ha!) is increasing by the minute

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #423 on: December 31, 2016, 03:58:33 PM »
Vlad,

It’s not a false dichotomy at all, because…

In which case if “God” “creates” energy then you opt for option 1; if “God” “sustains” energy though then presumably it was there anyway for him to sustain (ie, option 2).

Which do you prefer?

In which case energy wasn’t there all along (also option 1).

Nothing has been “spelt out” at all. Your continued ducking and diving is obfuscation, not spelling out.

Did that car crash of a sentence mean something in your head when you wrote it?

But by “the universe” are you including or excluding energy from that conjecture?

What “we” don’t know is why anyone should take your conjecture “God” seriously at all, let alone your un-argued and un-evidenced notions of how He goes about His supposed activities. 

Actually I’d rather you stopped lying and finally attempted a cogent argument for this god of yours, but as there’s precious little chance of that it seems we’ll have to endure your continued ludicrousnesses, personal re-definitions of terms and endless evasions instead.

Oh well - new year, but same old Vlad eh?
Yes I agree your conception of the word CREATE is not up to the job of describing the ''notion of sustaining''. Because it completely explains AWAY without tackling the nature of a hierarchical chain of derivation.

You have therefore played the intellectual fascist/pirate role again and deliberately fixed creation as a point in time.

I'm afraid if being can be eternal, something you and others have argued for then dependent being can be particularly when ability is observed to be derived.

In short nothing you have said addresses the derived power/actual power dilemma.

In maintaining eternal being without actual power your argument is going to remain illogical.

As I said, start polishing.

There is no ducking on my part. Just your avoidance of the logical.

Once again without the actual the derived cannot be. Energy is change and therefore derived.

If energy is eternally sustained then without God it ceases to be.

If it is eternal then a God who finds it clearly isn't and is derived.

That leaves everything as derived and that is illogical since where is your actual.

Actual power is unavoidable if derived power is observed and it is.

I'm afraid that rather leaves you as the naughty schoolboy of whom the teacher reports

''if only he spent time and his intellectual capabilities learning rather than on avoiding learning.''

As I said if the universe has a moment where it popped out of nothing that is a change and therefore that has to logically be derived power and therefore there has to be actual power.

If it doesn't then I'm afraid there is, has been and will be forever more only anything here because of actual power and the complete eternal dependence of it.

As far as the unseen hordes apparently watching me committing intellectual suicide are concerned I think they are being treated to more than enough instances of bruised egos lashing out.

Listen toots.

I'm having a blast at the moment but maybe you just need time to adjusting to the new realities of New Vladdism and I think your gradual acceptance of your logical dilemma your intellectual efforts are landing yourself in.

 
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 04:04:11 PM by Emergence-The musical »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The Illusion of Self
« Reply #424 on: December 31, 2016, 04:00:47 PM »
Walter,

Quote
Are you aware that others are reading this thread but prefer to watch you commit intellectual suicide . I for one will not interfere , ill just carry on watching.

I think perhaps that you're rather assuming there to be a functioning intellect to commit the suicide, but I take the point - he actually seems too delight in throwing himself off a cliff every time his efforts are rebutted. Odd.
"Don't make me come down there."

God