Author Topic: Can robots be saved?  (Read 3590 times)

Nearly Sane

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Can robots be saved?
« on: April 19, 2017, 07:05:40 PM »

Sriram

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Re: Can robots be saved?
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2017, 06:54:13 AM »


I  wonder if we can reincarnate into robots in the future!!  Terrible thought!

Bubbles

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Re: Can robots be saved?
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2017, 08:02:16 AM »

I  wonder if we can reincarnate into robots in the future!!  Terrible thought!

No just transplanted.


Nearly Sane

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Re: Can robots be saved?
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2017, 09:30:01 AM »
No just transplanted.
To be fair, I think the question would be whether there is any difference in reincarnated/transplanted here. Indeed, in terms of the language, maybe neither term really works since in theory, the current you and the new you could co-exist. I think the schism discussed in the article about whether we need flesh casings is related to Sriram's distaste for the idea of being a robot as opposed to a cyborg. This, I suspect, is because there seems to be a dissolution of self if we are completely downloaded into a robot but in the case of a cyborg, taking some of the flesh with us gives a theoretical continuity.That said, it's not clear that either as a starter or over time, our once too solid flesh might not be replaced by other flesh, perhaps even stuff grown in a lab for the purpose. That would make us a sort of cyborg Trigger's broom. (  More classically the Ship of Theseus but worth having a look at the various examples coveted in the link https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ship_of_Theseus_examples)

The possibility of transhumanism seems to me a fundamental challenge to a lot of our day to day perceptions. Say for example we 'download' Person A and then upload them to two units, one cyborg, one robot. If person A is still alive, then I think we would regard them as not Person A. Does it make a difference if it happens at the moment of death? If so, is one more like person A? Does it matter if the cyborg has flesh from Person A or not?

I find Sriram's disgust at the idea of a robot us both understandable and perplexing . Understandable because the idea that we could be so 'incarnated' in something so alien as a robot seems weird. Perplexing in that given he believes in reincarnation the basic premise is no different.


Sriram

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Re: Can robots be saved?
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2017, 09:53:10 AM »

Reincarnation is not just about occupying some sort of shell. It is about spiritual growth. It should involve the ability of reducing our animal instincts and of increasing our love, compassion and universal thinking. Its about being able to change what we are.  The human body has evolved for that.

I am not sure a robot will be able to do that.

Udayana

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Re: Can robots be saved?
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2017, 06:07:39 PM »
...
I find Sriram's disgust at the idea of a robot us both understandable and perplexing . Understandable because the idea that we could be so 'incarnated' in something so alien as a robot seems weird. Perplexing in that given he believes in reincarnation the basic premise is no different.

It is very different - the whole idea of what "someone" is - is very different. When talking about capturing/uploading a person to a computer or machine we are talking about transferring someone's memories, character, thoughts, behaviour - their conciousness. But none of these are transferred in reincarnation - it is not the same "person" reborn.

Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Sriram

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Re: Can robots be saved?
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2017, 07:43:48 AM »
It is very different - the whole idea of what "someone" is - is very different. When talking about capturing/uploading a person to a computer or machine we are talking about transferring someone's memories, character, thoughts, behaviour - their conciousness. But none of these are transferred in reincarnation - it is not the same "person" reborn.


It is the atma/soul that is the person, the Self or Subject... and which is believed to hold the essence of all the experiences the atma has had in its various reincarnations. It is that which reacts to events.

Whatever event transpires in this life...it is not the event itself but our reaction to the event that matters and which differs from person to person. In fact, our genetic differences themselves are probably because of the differences in the atma.

So...the essence of all our experiences is held in the atma/soul....and that is what makes every person different from the others.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 08:35:18 AM by Sriram »

ippy

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Re: Can robots be saved?
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2017, 12:27:55 PM »
Reincarnation is not just about occupying some sort of shell. It is about spiritual growth. It should involve the ability of reducing our animal instincts and of increasing our love, compassion and universal thinking. Its about being able to change what we are.  The human body has evolved for that.

I am not sure a robot will be able to do that.

I find it difficult to think of anything any more daft than the idea of reincarnation, I can think of plenty of things that are equally as daft, say Elvis is still alive but in hiding, both equally as likely?

ippy

Sriram

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Re: Can robots be saved?
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2017, 02:27:17 PM »


While reincarnation into robots is meaningless because of what I said above....it is possible that some ghosts could occupy robots. This could be potentially dangerous. A real 'ghost in the machine' situation!  Ghosts are said to be astral bodies of dead people. 

ippy

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Re: Can robots be saved?
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2017, 05:25:20 PM »

While reincarnation into robots is meaningless because of what I said above....it is possible that some ghosts could occupy robots. This could be potentially dangerous. A real 'ghost in the machine' situation!  Ghosts are said to be astral bodies of dead people.

Now we've got ghosts? Tribbles, (The Star Trek varity)?

ippy

jeremyp

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Re: Can robots be saved?
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2017, 06:00:30 PM »

I  wonder if we can reincarnate into robots in the future!!  Terrible thought!
Why is it a terrible thought?
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Sriram

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Re: Can robots be saved?
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2017, 07:16:38 AM »
Why is it a terrible thought?

I don't know about you...but I don't fancy sitting inside a metal/plastic robot...carrying things around or doing sums.

More importantly, we have many needs, desires and instinctive impulses that we are carrying forward from our animal background. All those need an outlet which only a biological body can provide....not a robot.  The human body has evolved and is also markedly different for different people only due to the differences in the atma/soul (IMO).  Standardized robots will not do.

But as I said, some odd astral bodies (ghosts) could occupy some of the robots and could create a problem.

 

Nearly Sane

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Re: Can robots be saved?
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2017, 07:43:15 AM »
Why do you think a robot with the implanting of an individual will be 'carrying things round or doing sums', Sriram?

Sriram

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Re: Can robots be saved?
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2017, 08:12:18 AM »
Why do you think a robot with the implanting of an individual will be 'carrying things round or doing sums', Sriram?



OK...since you are persistent let me add...

The human body is programmed from the inside. It performs as per the DNA programming. What programs the DNA?   Science has no answer, but according to spirituality it is the atma/soul that directs the programming of the DNA. In other words, the body/mind are in line with the spiritual level of the atma/soul and its karmic energies. It is just right for that individual and meant specifically to make that person develop.

A robot is programmed from the outside by engineers for whatever purpose (sums, carrying things or whatever). A atma does not have any means of programming it to its specific requirements. In other words, a robot will serve no purpose at all in reincarnation.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Can robots be saved?
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2017, 08:14:29 AM »


OK...since you are persistent let me add...

The human body is programmed from the inside. It performs as per the DNA programming. What programs the DNA?   Science has no answer, but according to spirituality it is the atma/soul that directs the programming of the DNA. In other words, the body/mind are in line with the spiritual level of the atma/soul and its karmic energies. It is just right for that individual and meant specifically to make that person develop.

A robot is programmed from the outside by engineers for whatever purpose (sums, carrying things or whatever). A atma does not have any means of programming it to its specific requirements. In other words, a robot will serve no purpose at all in reincarnation.

You are confused about how transhumanism would work. The 'program' is the individual. The robot is merely a shell.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 08:16:31 AM by Nearly Sane »

Sriram

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Re: Can robots be saved?
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2017, 08:21:48 AM »
You are confused about how transhumanism would work. The 'program' is the individual. The robot is merely a shell.


I am not talking about transhumanism. I am talking about reincarnation. The atma/soul is the individual. Not some program.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Can robots be saved?
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2017, 08:34:56 AM »

I am not talking about transhumanism. I am talking about reincarnation. The atma/soul is the individual. Not some program.
Transhumanism is what the link is about. If you want to argue that it is impossible then, fair enough please do so. But you were representing the idea incorrectly and not dealing with the ideas. I can understand that, they are challenging to basic concepts you may hold but it is surely better not to misrepresent the idea?

Sriram

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Re: Can robots be saved?
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2017, 10:04:03 AM »
Transhumanism is what the link is about. If you want to argue that it is impossible then, fair enough please do so. But you were representing the idea incorrectly and not dealing with the ideas. I can understand that, they are challenging to basic concepts you may hold but it is surely better not to misrepresent the idea?

My comment can be traced to the conversation started at reply 1 on reincarnation.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Can robots be saved?
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2017, 10:08:06 AM »
My comment can be traced to the conversation started at reply 1 on reincarnation.
which is still no reason to misrepresent the idea of transhumanism as raised in the link.

Sriram

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Re: Can robots be saved?
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2017, 10:13:16 AM »
which is still no reason to misrepresent the idea of transhumanism as raised in the link.


I was talking about reincarnation right from reply 1. I wasn't referring to transhumanism. Don't you get it?! Where is the question of misrepresenting it?


Nearly Sane

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Re: Can robots be saved?
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2017, 11:14:31 AM »

I was talking about reincarnation right from reply 1. I wasn't referring to transhumanism. Don't you get it?! Where is the question of misrepresenting it?

You created a strawman about what the concepts of robors is in regards to what is covered in the link. As noted, you seem to be struggling with the ideas being covered in the link because you cannot look at them with disinterest and need, probably subconsciously, to portray them incorrectly.

jeremyp

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Re: Can robots be saved?
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2017, 02:37:38 PM »
I don't know about you...but I don't fancy sitting inside a metal/plastic robot...carrying things around or doing sums.
Would that be worse than being reincarnated as a tapeworm?

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Bubbles

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Re: Can robots be saved?
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2017, 03:12:41 PM »
I don't know about you...but I don't fancy sitting inside a metal/plastic robot...carrying things around or doing sums.

More importantly, we have many needs, desires and instinctive impulses that we are carrying forward from our animal background. All those need an outlet which only a biological body can provide....not a robot.  The human body has evolved and is also markedly different for different people only due to the differences in the atma/soul (IMO).  Standardized robots will not do.

But as I said, some odd astral bodies (ghosts) could occupy some of the robots and could create a problem.

I wouldn't be carrying things around or doing sums, just think it would be possible to travel through space and arrive millions of light years to another planet

 ( although " are we there yet?" could take on a whole new emphasis  ;))