Author Topic: Non-realist Christianity  (Read 24871 times)

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #50 on: August 13, 2017, 02:46:54 PM »
Ooooh I seriously don't like Gumvel, HTB, Alpha and all it stands for. The damage that woo peddler does scares me.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19217
Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #51 on: August 13, 2017, 03:01:29 PM »
Vladdo,

Quote
I think it is disingenuous of you to suggest I have never thought of scientism as ''putting undue weight on the methods and findings of science''

I didn’t say that. What I did say though was that you’ve invested hugely in a personal re-definition of it in order to attack it. No-one I know of subscribes to that re-definition though, so your critique of it is just so much howling at the moon.

Quote
That of course can be up to and including a belief that science can or will explain everything.

Which no-one suggests.

Quote
Are you suggesting that scientism is not worthy of attack?

Depends which definition of it you think you’re referring to.

Quote
If you have not come across extreme scientism you either have your eyes closed or should get out more IMHO.

So now you’ve changed from “scientism” to “extreme scientism”. Odd.

Let me help you: what you’re actually referring to is called “metaphysical naturalism”, though again I’ve never heard anyone propose it.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32530
  • PAY THE NURSES!
Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #52 on: August 13, 2017, 03:05:30 PM »
Vladdo,

I didn’t say that. What I did say though was that you’ve invested hugely in a personal re-definition of it in order to attack it. No-one I know of subscribes to that re-definition though, so your critique of it is just so much howling at the moon.

Which no-one suggests.

Depends which definition of it you think you’re referring to.

So now you’ve changed from “scientism” to “extreme scientism”. Odd.

Let me help you: what you’re actually referring to is called “metaphysical naturalism”, though again I’ve never heard anyone propose it.
Vlad chokes on acrid ''Blue'' smoke and bumps into another of Hillsides mirrors.
Brains evolved the capacity to integrate multiple multi modal sensory input streams into a single experiential flow eons ago...

floo

  • Guest
Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #53 on: August 13, 2017, 03:09:40 PM »
Blimey Vlad, you are really making up for lost time, since your little 'holiday'! ;D

SteveH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8991
  • From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #54 on: August 13, 2017, 03:16:52 PM »
Dynamite   Tick
Diesel   Tick
CFC's  Tick
H Bomb   Tick
Totally irrelevant post   Tick
True godliness don't turn men out of the world, but enables them to live better in it, and excites their endeavours to mend it.
William Penn

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19217
Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #55 on: August 13, 2017, 05:41:26 PM »
Vladdo,

Quote
Vlad chokes on acrid ''Blue'' smoke and bumps into another of Hillsides mirrors.

Avoidance noted.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6859
Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2017, 07:29:37 AM »
That's well put, Torridon. A divine being 'out there' doesn't make sense. As you know I'm a pantheist - so to me the universe is 'god'. This is making me wonder if I see the universe as a single 'being'. Hmm.

You must distinguish between inanimate and animate matter, though. In no sense can inanimate matter be thought of as part of a being.
The universe is structured I'm a way that points to God. We think of prayers as going 'upwards' as if God was above us, for example. For me that's either a sign that we and the universe are designed, or its a giant coincidence. Or another example is the moon appearing to be exactly the same size as the sun - an eclipse can move us to examine our thoughts and actions, etc.
Yeah, I know there are nasty aspects of the natural world, that seem to make any designer look nasty. But that's another debate - all in all, design is like a signpost pointing to a creator.

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6859
Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2017, 07:32:39 AM »
... that's in the same way that if you see an airplane flying, that's a sign that there is a clever person who has built it.

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2017, 07:34:30 AM »
Non realist christianity; yes?

ippy

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10164
Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2017, 07:38:57 AM »
You must distinguish between inanimate and animate matter, though. In no sense can inanimate matter be thought of as part of a being.
Eh ?  I am made of trillions of atoms, not one of which is alive. Am I not a being therefore ?

The universe is structured I'm a way that points to God. We think of prayers as going 'upwards' as if God was above us, for example. For me that's either a sign that we and the universe are designed, or its a giant coincidence. Or another example is the moon appearing to be exactly the same size as the sun - an eclipse can move us to examine our thoughts and actions, etc.
Yeah, I know there are nasty aspects of the natural world, that seem to make any designer look nasty. But that's another debate - all in all, design is like a signpost pointing to a creator.

That is personal interpretation, ie part of your particular bias-set, not something objective.

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10164
Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #60 on: August 14, 2017, 07:42:20 AM »
... that's in the same way that if you see an airplane flying, that's a sign that there is a clever person who has built it.

Within the particular context of human civilisation that would be reasonable.  You can't extrapolate from that to some fundamental prime cause context without running into logic problems though.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32530
  • PAY THE NURSES!
Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #61 on: August 14, 2017, 10:27:43 AM »
Eh ?  I am made of trillions of atoms, not one of which is alive. Am I not a being therefore ?

That is personal interpretation, ie part of your particular bias-set, not something objective.
So you discount Biology then and hence consider the likes of Dawkins a pseudoscientist?
Brains evolved the capacity to integrate multiple multi modal sensory input streams into a single experiential flow eons ago...

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4286
Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #62 on: August 14, 2017, 04:19:12 PM »
I asked you first.

No, you made a statement, and then went on to divert the thread into the area of your favourite bugbear - scientism (or what you understand by that term). The thread is about non-realist Christianity. Shaker made it plain that he is well-informed about its arguments, and has read a good deal of the literature. You appear to be somewhat ill-informed.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4286
Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #63 on: August 14, 2017, 04:35:00 PM »
I've read a lot of the non-realist literature - Don Cupitt (a beautifully hand-written letter from whom I cherish) is a particularly interesting writer, I think; twenty-odd years ago David Hart was the chaplain at Loughborough University, not too far from me.

Cupitt seems to have been very diligent in this respect. I can't boast a full letter from him, but I received a very polite postcard from him when I took him to task over some of his arguments over his TV series back in the '90s. (I was still a believer in "Life Force" back then, so no doubt my angle of approach was different from yours.) He suggested I give his books a try, since he thought he did better in that medium. I proceeded to read quite a few.

There's no doubt he writes well. I liked the way he traced the development of theological thinking down the ages from a belief in a 'God out there' to a 'God within' (I suppose Christianity traditionally has promoted both at once, though the 'God within' has rather taken a subsidiary role). Cupitt took his argument into the areas of Jung, then Tillich, then Wittgenstein - and that's where I parted company with him, in this case my objections being similar to yours.
He was for a time a priest in the Church of England, and no doubt still used the Book of Common Prayer, and maybe recited the Creed. I have to say, it takes some stretch of the metaphorical approach to see what relevant meaning might be gleaned from "Christ.. ascended into heaven and sitteth on the right hand of God". Maybe Vlad can tell us what that really means.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #64 on: August 14, 2017, 06:56:36 PM »
I thought being a non-realist is a prerequisite for being a supporter of christianity or any other religion?

ippy


Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 58813
Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #65 on: August 14, 2017, 07:12:52 PM »
I thought being a non-realist is a prerequisite for being a supporter of christianity or any other religion?

ippy
Hadn't taken you for a Platonist, ippy!

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #66 on: August 14, 2017, 08:02:16 PM »
Hadn't taken you for a Platonist, ippy!

Ah you've spotted the subtlety of how I try to hide it, mind you that popular three coloured ice creamism.

ippy

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 58813
Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #67 on: August 14, 2017, 08:14:05 PM »
Ah you've spotted the subtlety of how I try to hide it, mind you that popular three coloured ice creamism.

ippy
More a Three Flavours Cornetto person, myself.

SwordOfTheSpirit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 734
Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #68 on: August 16, 2017, 10:22:10 AM »
Let's face it - in this scientific age, the arguments for the existence of God don't bear much scrutiny, and the arguments against are hard to counter, in particular the existence of suffering: not all suffering, which is probably inevitable in a material universe, but the built-in suffering, such as parasitic worms, some of which cause hideous suffering to their hosts, but have to do so in order to live themselves; also horrendous genetic diseases such as spinal muscular atrophy, epidermolysis bullosa, and proteus syndrome.
However, human beings have a religious capacity and need (not every single human, before some smart-arse says "I dont!", but humans in general), so why not practice religion - Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism or whatever - without pretending that it is a true account of the world: treat it, as it were, as artrather than science? That, essentially, is the non-realist position, espoused by Don Cupitt and others, and foreshadowed by Paul Tillich, and is where I am nowadays.
Thoughts? Come on, traditionalists - try to argue me back into belief in an objectively-existing God!

There was a comment from a poster with the moniker R U Mashin' on the old BBC Christian Topic site who said this  years ago (1):
Quote
Coversion (sic) is achieving a mental state where the Christian model 'works' - that is offers us a consistent world view.

Deconversion is when this model fails.
The problem with the intellectual-only approach to God is that one unintentionally ends up creating a ‘god’ in their own image. The approach may be far more sophisticated than building idols of wood or stone, but the root is the same: something created by human beings to make sense of the world.

The antidote is a biblical incident that appears here regularly! When God tells Abraham to sacrifice his son Issac, an intellectual-only approach will either conclude that Abraham was mistaken or that God was lying about Issac being Abraham’s heir. This either-or approach is what happens today, and as it stands there is no way to resolve the apparent contradiction.

The solution is to do what Abraham did. He trusted God! Hebrews 11  v 19 shows that Abraham reasoned that if Issac were to be killed, God would have to raise him from the dead. At the time when Abraham decided to trust God, he didn’t know how things were going to play out.

Ultimately the faith of the Christian is not in arguments for God, or in counter-arguments for those against. It is in the person of God Himself! Therefore, what is needed today is the same kind of trust in God when we don’t have all the answers now, e.g. the often raised problems of evil and suffering. It is neither trust-only (no intellect) or intellect-only (no trust). Both are needed.

(1)#68 of this thread Deconversion: Phase 0 (the pre-deconversion)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbreligion/NF2213235?thread=6244050&skip=60#p74791102
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #69 on: August 16, 2017, 10:58:09 AM »
Ultimately the faith of the Christian is not in arguments for God, or in counter-arguments for those against. It is in the person of God Himself!
Having used the negative proof fallacy on another thread, here you are within moments laying down the begging the question fallacy, aka circular reasoning aka petitio principii. No one could ever accuse you of being inconsistent, I'll give you that.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

  • Guest
Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2017, 11:07:46 AM »
There was a comment from a poster with the moniker R U Mashin' on the old BBC Christian Topic site who said this  years ago (1):The problem with the intellectual-only approach to God is that one unintentionally ends up creating a ‘god’ in their own image. The approach may be far more sophisticated than building idols of wood or stone, but the root is the same: something created by human beings to make sense of the world.

The antidote is a biblical incident that appears here regularly! When God tells Abraham to sacrifice his son Issac, an intellectual-only approach will either conclude that Abraham was mistaken or that God was lying about Issac being Abraham’s heir. This either-or approach is what happens today, and as it stands there is no way to resolve the apparent contradiction.


Ultimately the faith of the Christian is not in arguments for God, or in counter-arguments for those against. It is in the person of God Himself! Therefore, what is needed today is the same kind of trust in God when we don’t have all the answers now, e.g. the often raised problems of evil and suffering. It is neither trust-only The solution is to do what Abraham did. He trusted God! Hebrews 11  v 19 shows that Abraham reasoned that if Issac were to be killed, God would have to raise him from the dead. At the time when Abraham decided to trust God, he didn’t know how things were going to play out.
(no intellect) or intellect-only (no trust). Both are needed.

(1)#68 of this thread Deconversion: Phase 0 (the pre-deconversion)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbreligion/NF2213235?thread=6244050&skip=60#p74791102

So if I believe god is telling me to sacrifice my child I go along with it, as I know god will make it right in the end, is that what you are saying?

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2017, 03:18:52 PM »
So if I believe god is telling me to sacrifice my child I go along with it, as I know god will make it right in the end, is that what you are saying?

Probably Floo, it's hardly a surprise when you see yet another ridiculous idea that comes under the heading, religion.

ippy

floo

  • Guest
Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #72 on: August 16, 2017, 03:29:42 PM »
Probably Floo, it's hardly a surprise when you see yet another ridiculous idea that comes under the heading, religion.

ippy

There was a case in the US a little while ago; a couple refused to have their sick child treated as they believed god would ride to the rescue. The poor child died. :o

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19217
Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #73 on: August 16, 2017, 05:09:22 PM »
Sword,

Quote
He trusted God!

See whether you can spot the problem here.

I'll give you a clue: the fallacy of reification.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

SteveH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8991
  • From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
Re: Non-realist Christianity
« Reply #74 on: August 17, 2017, 09:24:38 AM »
There was a comment from a poster with the moniker R U Mashin' on the old BBC Christian Topic site who said this  years ago (1):The problem with the intellectual-only approach to God is that one unintentionally ends up creating a ‘god’ in their own image. The approach may be far more sophisticated than building idols of wood or stone, but the root is the same: something created by human beings to make sense of the world.

The antidote is a biblical incident that appears here regularly! When God tells Abraham to sacrifice his son Issac, an intellectual-only approach will either conclude that Abraham was mistaken or that God was lying about Issac being Abraham’s heir. This either-or approach is what happens today, and as it stands there is no way to resolve the apparent contradiction.

The solution is to do what Abraham did. He trusted God! Hebrews 11  v 19 shows that Abraham reasoned that if Issac were to be killed, God would have to raise him from the dead. At the time when Abraham decided to trust God, he didn’t know how things were going to play out.

Ultimately the faith of the Christian is not in arguments for God, or in counter-arguments for those against. It is in the person of God Himself! Therefore, what is needed today is the same kind of trust in God when we don’t have all the answers now, e.g. the often raised problems of evil and suffering. It is neither trust-only (no intellect) or intellect-only (no trust). Both are needed.

(1)#68 of this thread Deconversion: Phase 0 (the pre-deconversion)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbreligion/NF2213235?thread=6244050&skip=60#p74791102
Who said anything about intellect-only? If I was intellect-only, I'd be an atheist. It's because of Christianity's emotional hold that I hang on as a non-realist.
True godliness don't turn men out of the world, but enables them to live better in it, and excites their endeavours to mend it.
William Penn