Do You Think IQ Is Like Money?

[Keith Maitland]

I saw this comment by Carl Bereiter.


IQ is like money. Publicly you proclaim that those individuals who have a lot are no better than those who have a little.... But privately you wish you had a lot.


Agree?

[Rhiannon]

No.

[floo]

No

[Shaker]

Yes.

Very intelligent people, like very beautiful people, know that they are. Intelligence is a very good thing and stupidity (or at very best average middling mediocrity, which functionally amounts to the same thing) a very bad thing.

That should be quick, clear, easy and simple. The only reason it isn't is that we live in a dumbed-down, stupid-worshipping degenerate culture where there is a cult of the stupid (Jade Goody becomes a massively wealthy reality TV star; people become celebrities because of how they bake cakes, etc.) and excellence in any field is waved away as posh, arrogant elitism.

I like elitism. I like brilliant people doing great things at the very top of their bent. Big Macs and Eastenders and the Daily Mail can mop up the remainder.

[Rhiannon]

Keith said IQ, not intelligence, or excellence.

As much as I feel deeply sorry for what happened to Jade Goody, one reason she became famous was because of her bullying. I don’t mind stupidity but I do mind unkindness, and that isn’t limited to the thick by any means.

[Shaker]

Keith said IQ, not intelligence, or excellence.

I think intelligence is excellence in the original Greek sense - arete. The best people doing the best things.

As much as I feel deeply sorry for what happened to Jade Goody, one reason she became famous was because of her bullying.

Well that's just ridiculous, isn't it.

I don’t mind stupidity

I do.

[Keith Maitland]

Yes.

Very intelligent people, like very beautiful people, know that they are. Intelligence is a very good thing and stupidity (or at very best average middling mediocrity, which functionally amounts to the same thing) a very bad thing.

That should be quick, clear, easy and simple. The only reason it isn't is that we live in a dumbed-down, stupid-worshipping degenerate culture where there is a cult of the stupid (Jade Goody becomes a massively wealthy reality TV star; people become celebrities because of how they bake cakes, etc.) and excellence in any field is waved away as posh, arrogant elitism.

I like elitism. I like brilliant people doing great things at the very top of their bent. Big Macs and Eastenders and the Daily Mail can mop up the remainder.

Exactly.

And I think the people who would answer "no" are very uncomfortable thinking of intelligence as a single dimension, or as inherent.

To the extent that by "intelligence" we mean a set of core analytical and verbal abilities largely determined via genetics and early childhood, I agree that it's an unearned gift that they should be thankful for and use to improve the world.

[Shaker]

Keith, old fruit, you are here too little and often.

A very merry Christmas to you and yours   

[Rhiannon]

But Keith, you talked about IQ which is a very narrow way of defining intelligence. Do I think intelligence admirable? Yes I do, and I like being with intelligent people because they make me stretch myself and be a better me, if that makes sense. I don’t feel spiteful or inferior around it.

I dislike arrogance, but intelligence and arrogance don’t go hand in hand. Plenty of people are arrogant because they over estimate their intelligence or attractiveness.

[Robbie]

No, Keith. I'm happy as I am with my reasonably good intelligence and what I do with it, do not envy the bods for having a few more points but admire them if they use their intelligence in a positive way.

Rhiannon:- Plenty of people are arrogant because they over estimate their intelligence or attractiveness.

I've come across that a few times and it's embarrassing yet quite funny really because people who have it don't need to flaunt it.

[Rhiannon]

A cute mind is very attractive. I love someone talking about their passions.

[Shaker]

I've come across that a few times and it's embarrassing yet quite funny really because people who have it don't need to flaunt it.

Why not?

[Robbie]

Because they're happy in their own skin and quietly confident.

[Rhiannon]

Because they're happy in their own skin and quietly confident.

I don’t think intelligence equates to confidence. I went to a school where being intelligent led to bullying. Not a recipe for confidence.

What I do think though is that with someone who has a genuine high intelligence it is something that just flows. Flaunting it takes effort.

[Robbie]

What I do think though is that with someone who has a genuine high intelligence it is something that just flows. Flaunting it takes effort.
Yes.

Must say I haven't personally come across many intelligent bullies - there's still time I suppose.

[Walter]

Why not?

I do it all the time when I'm out and about ,Shakes!

[Nearly Sane]

No, given that it is adjusting a single narrow factor in what makes up 'me' adjusting it in some way may have effects that aren't planned for. Rather I would wish to be less of a dick, and my own experience seems to bear out that my IQ, not just a narrow but a hugely simplistic notion, seems to have had no bearing upon my actual dickness  other than on occasion increasing the value of the dickosity that I can achieve.

 Further my observation of others seems to indicate that any general perception of intelligence does not also indicated lesser dicklike qualities with the general dickish levels fairly constant no matter what someone's 'IQ' might be judged as. Indeed, as with my specific observation , in general more intelligence seems only to increase the excellence of the dickery that can be achieved.

[Gordon]

I'm in the No camp too.

A high IQ may indicate something about intelligence but it mainly indicates proficiency with regard to completing a particular IQ test(s) at a particular point in time and this seems, to me to anyway, to be about as useful an indicator of the nature of a person as finding out that they once did well at completing 'the wee stinker' cryptic crossword in the Glasgow Herald on a good day and with a following wind.

Whenever I hear someone crow about being a member of Mensa I imagine them showing everyone the gold star a teacher once stuck on a page of their jotter - but can they also change a tap washer or play the xylophone?

[floo]

My husband had an extremely high Mensa level IQ before his illness, and was a very successful academic. He could do complicated things like rewiring homes without difficulty, but simple tasks which me the family thicko found easy, eluded him.  Nowadays even though he only has half a functioning brain he can put flat pack goods together easily, and do the most complicated of graphs on his computer, but can't remember his address or send an e-mail.

[Rhiannon]

I'm in the No camp too.

A high IQ may indicate something about intelligence but it mainly indicates proficiency with regard to completing a particular IQ test(s) at a particular point in time and this seems, to me to anyway, to be about as useful an indicator of the nature of a person as finding out that they once did well at completing 'the wee stinker' cryptic crossword in the Glasgow Herald on a good day and with a following wind.

Whenever I hear someone crow about being a member of Mensa I imagine them showing everyone the gold star a teacher once stuck on a page of their jotter - but can they also change a tap washer or play the xylophone?

This explains what I think exactly.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

It's not a question of what you have, but how you use it.

Take for example The Supreme Court Practice Book. Having a photographic memory & memorising it all is pointless even if you are a lawyer. What is more important is knowing how to look up the parts that you need as and when you need to use them.

[ippy]

It doesn't matter how much I Q anyone has there's always something we try to do or work out that gets us a flat line on the oscilloscope.

Even I have failings, yes I know.

ippy

[Keith Maitland]

Gordon,

I'm in the No camp too.... A high IQ may indicate something about intelligence but it mainly indicates proficiency with regard to completing a particular IQ test(s) at a particular point in time.

Ok... but I've always believed that intelligence in some deep but ill-defined sense is a real attribute of human beings, not some artificial construct of the psychometricians who invented intelligence tests.


Here is Seymour Itzkoff's definition of intelligence:

Intelligence is a very general mental capability that, among other things, involves the ability to organize large quantities of information into meaningful and useful systems, to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly, and learn from experience. It is not merely book-learning, a narrow academic skill, or test-taking smarts.... Rather, it reflects a broader and deeper capability for comprehending our surroundings "catching on," "making sense" of things, or "figuring out" what to do.

But he also stresses the following:

Lower intelligence is a limiting factor when it comes to education, employment, and economic success but IQ has nothing to do with dignity, friendliness, compassion, honesty and a host of other positive human attributes.

[Nearly Sane]

Surely though treating various 'attributes' as if they exist seperately from each other is a tad simplistic?

[ekim]

It seems to avoid including 'emotional intelligence'.