Freedom of Expression is Dead in Britain

[Nearly Sane]

But as JeremyP had said, the same thing was in his opening post, yet, you did not take him up on exactly the same point. Hmmm, something fishy going on.

Anyway, I will say freedom of expression is being curtailed and as such eroded, I believe it will continue as a creeping death. The hate laws are unnecessary in the UK as we have other legislation to prosecute under.

Here is an example from your own very fine city NS, https://tinyurl.com/ybwoflrl

Racially abusing police officers, not prosecuted under hate legislation which he could have been, but he wasn't and in addition he avoided jail, yet Mark Meechan was done as a hate crime and faces jail.

I am losing confidence in the police. FGM is rampant, knife crime in London is out of control, shoplifting is almost not a crime and 999 calls can take days to get a response yet say some hurty words and they are all over it like a rash.

Nothing fishy, just hadn't been posting when Jeremyp posted, and then picked up on your post as a recent post.  Tbh I am not even sure what you think would be fishy.

And yes, I know you are making a slippery slope argument, repeating it doesn't give it anymore validity. And I am frankly baffled why you cite a case where someone wasn't done for hate speech as an argument for it being a slippery slope.


Given you have raised Scotland, in the guise of its best city, it might be worth considering that the Offensive Behaviour at Football Act, OBFA, has just been repealed which would seem to be evidence against your slippery slope argument.

http://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-42774512


Not really sure what point your last para is trying to make as it introduces a number of other issues which appear to have no real connection to your point.

[Nearly Sane]

The CPS has this on their website about hate crime
However they go on to say that as there is no legal definition of hostility they will go with the dictionary one which includes Ill-will, spite, contempt, prejudice, unfriendliness, antagonism, resentment and dislike.

No, it isn't a joke.

People take this very seriously indeed. The London Mayor has set up  900 strong team to tackle hate crime which includes hurty words on Twitter etc. Just think about that. Nine hundred staff employed in the London crime fighting area to tackle "hate" crime. The law used to prosecute Count Dankula.

In the meantime London has overtaken New York for number of murders.

Not really sure what point you are making with the last line but it's worth being a bit dubious about short term stats

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43628494

[JP]

A hate crime trial in Wales

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-43645636

[Nearly Sane]

A hate crime trial in Wales

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-43645636

And this shows your premise that we are witnessing an unavoidable slippery slope in what way?

[Nearly Sane]

SO Meechan has been fined £800! Have t admit that I don't see the point in it. If it was an actual hate crime then that's not an appropriate sentence, and if it isn't then there shouldn't be a guilty verdict

[Rhiannon]

Is it a hate crime to lost Robertson’s golly pins on eBay? Because there’s quite a lot on there. I’m guessing that both they and the dolls turn up at car boot sales and collectors fairs.

FWIW I had a golly as a child, it had been my cousin’s and she passed him onto me as she outgrew him. I never even knew what it represented until I was an adult.

[Nearly Sane]

Is it a hate crime to lost Robertson’s golly pins on eBay? Because there’s quite a lot on there. I’m guessing that both they and the dolls turn up at car boot sales and collectors fairs.

FWIW I had a golly as a child, it had been my cousin’s and she passed him onto me as she outgrew him. I never even knew what it represented until I was an adult.

I've been doing a books I love with no explanation thing elsewhere , and I've been trying to post the covers from when I read them at first. SO I put up the 70s cover that I read Ten Little Niggers in, complete with golliwog on cover. Do I think doing that was a hate crime - nope, And I don't think Dunkula was either though there may have been more intent to test boundaries. My issue is though if you think it's a hate crime a fine is pointless - he'll get that for an interview and there will be many interviews. That cases like this happen are not indicative of huge changes to British law, just that it's a law that will always have grey areas.  Multiple repetitions of Gas the Jews is going to at least trigger some questioning of the intent.

[Nearly Sane]

Link to the judgement in the case - note neither Crown nor defence submitted  anything formally about freedom of expression.



http://www.scotland-judiciary.org.uk/8/1962/PF-v-Mark-Meechan

[Rhiannon]

I've been doing a books I love with no explanation thing elsewhere , and I've been trying to post the covers from when I read them at first. SO I put up the 70s cover that I read Ten Little Niggers in, complete with golliwog on cover. Do I think doing that was a hate crime - nope, And I don't think Dunkula was either though there may have been more intent to test boundaries. My issue is though if you think it's a hate crime a fine is pointless - he'll get that for an interview and there will be many interviews. That cases like this happen are not indicative of huge changes to British law, just that it's a law that will always have grey areas.  Multiple repetitions of Gas the Jews is going to at least trigger some questioning of the intent.

Yes, I did get what your point was. I’m imagining fines for ebayers by the dozen.

But there’s a huge punishment in being found guilty of a hate crime. Publicity aside, this person will never pass a CRB check, for example, and will need to declare it to employers, when applying for a mortgage etc. This may or may not matter to this individual, but it does have wider implications. If I had any kind of golly related collectibles I’d be burning them or putting them into landfill. I don’t think it’s be safe even to try to sell them on. But anything repeating ‘gas the Jews’ can’t be anything other than a hate crime, surely?

[Rhiannon]

Link to the judgement in the case - note neither Crown nor defence submitted  anything formally about freedom of expression.



http://www.scotland-judiciary.org.uk/8/1962/PF-v-Mark-Meechan

If you said ‘gas the Jews’ at a football game you’d be arrested. I don’t see how this is any different.

[Nearly Sane]

If you said ‘gas the Jews’ at a football game you’d be arrested. I don’t see how this is any different.

I don't know about that. Given we've just had the Offensive Behaviour at Football Act , OBFA, removed from the statute book in Scotland in part because people felt it went to far, and yet you could still regularly hear the songs about being up to your knees in Fenian blood on Sky, I'm not sure simply saying 'Gas the Jews' at a football match would lead to arrest. I think the judgement is quite a clear one, and is certainly arguable but I think the issue is that it's really not clear that the bloke is trying to get people to gas Jews, or saying that it should happen.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, I did get what your point was. I’m imagining fines for ebayers by the dozen.

But there’s a huge punishment in being found guilty of a hate crime. Publicity aside, this person will never pass a CRB check, for example, and will need to declare it to employers, when applying for a mortgage etc. This may or may not matter to this individual, but it does have wider implications. If I had any kind of golly related collectibles I’d be burning them or putting them into landfill. I don’t think it’s be safe even to try to sell them on. But anything repeating ‘gas the Jews’ can’t be anything other than a hate crime, surely?

'Woman burns symbols of slaves in bizarre  threat to black immigrants'

[Nearly Sane]

Section 127 is a hugely controversial area of the law

https://wiki.openrightsgroup.org/wiki/Communications_Act_2003/Section_127


It should be noted though that it isn't a new idea in British law.

[Rhiannon]

I don't know about that. Given we've just had the Offensive Behaviour at Football Act , OBFA, removed from the statute book in Scotland in part because people felt it went to far, and yet you could still regularly hear the songs about being up to your knees in Fenian blood on Sky, I'm not sure simply saying 'Gas the Jews' at a football match would lead to arrest. I think the judgement is quite a clear one, and is certainly arguable but I think the issue is that it's really not clear that the bloke is trying to get people to gas Jews, or saying that it should happen.

Anti Semitic chanting certainly gets reported to the FA and fans have been arrested for Nazi salutes and the like. I don’t think arrests are unheard of, although probably not as often as they should. Obviously Spurs matches often feature.

[Nearly Sane]

Anti Semitic chanting certainly gets reported to the FA and fans have been arrested for Nazi salutes and the like. I don’t think arrests are unheard of, although probably not as often as they should. Obviously Spurs matches often feature.

Again the legislation is very different, but I think the idea that there is much chance of getting arrested at a football match for saying as one person to no one in particular, gas the jews, is fanciful.

[Nearly Sane]

Douglas Murray's take

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/count-dankula-mark-meechan-prosecution-free-speech-battle/