What if?

[Nearly Sane]

I'm not saying DM would necessarily have included a commitment to an EU refetendum, rather that I think it would have made it more likely as he would indulge in that most Blairite of tactics, triangulation. He would see it as a way of maintaining Labour voters who wanted out of the EU, with little actual cost because he wouldn't think he necessarily had to hold it.


Oh and BTW, facts that are prior to the hypothetical, such as Osbourne's promises to match Labour's spending, are what you use to base arguments about the hypothetical on.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I'm not saying DM would necessarily have included a commitment to an EU refetendum, rather that I think it would have made it more likely as he would indulge in that most Blairite of tactics, triangulation. He would see it as a way of maintaining Labour voters who wanted out of the EU, with little actual cost because he wouldn't think he necessarily had to hold it.


Oh and BTW, facts that are prior to the hypothetical, such as Osbourne's promises to match Labour's spending, are what you use to base arguments about the hypothetical on.

Many labour voters were motivated by the chance to stick one on Cameron. One imagines that would be sublimated in a vote for labour.
Even those ''attacking the metropolitan elite'' were only roused when Cameron stuck a Kick me sticker on his own arse by calling a referendum.

In the alternative timeline you will see I have English nationalism split between overturning the independence of other UK parliaments and assemblies and UKIP. In other words Bojoism and Faragism
where Bojo appeals to the idea that Britain is mainly Merrie England with Scotland, Wales and Ireland as Englands estates and Farage is focussed on EU withdrawal. Whether the two would have merged in future...probably.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What if the referendum result had been 52% Remain 48% Leave ?

[Shaker]

What about it? We stay. Problem?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What about it? We stay. Problem?

Read the Opening post stating the thread is about alternative timelines or histories. You will see that I proposed an alternative scenario and Nearly Sane has commented on whether the consequences I propose would have followed are realistic.

We stay......Yes...... but what consequences would that have had on politics and society?
Would Nigel Farage be an LBC shockjock or still UKIP supremo?
Where would T May, J Corbyn and B DpFp Johnson be now?
Would Brexiters have Gotoverit and accepted democracy?

[Shaker]

Read the Opening post stating the thread is about alternative timelines or histories.

I did, hence my response.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I did, hence my response.

Too brief to satisfy the spirit of the thread, then.

[Nearly Sane]

What if the referendum result had been 52% Remain 48% Leave ?

Cameron still PM, Farage trying to tempt Rees Mogg to move to UKIP. Boris just back in cabinet as Culture Secretary.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Cameron still PM, Farage trying to tempt Rees Mogg to move to UKIP. Boris just back in cabinet as Culture Secretary.

Agree.

Wasn't this the year Cameron was going to stand down?

I wonder who would have been in the frame? Would Osborne have survived the kicking the Lord's were starting to give him?

[Nearly Sane]

Agree.

Wasn't this the year Cameron was going to stand down?

I wonder who would have been in the frame? Would Osborne have survived the kicking the Lord's were starting to give him?

I think some time around this year/next year Cameron would be standing down. Given that May may have stayed at Home Secretary then she would have just had to resign because of Windrush, then I suspect Osbourne would be lead candidate for Remain. I think there would still be a push for a Leave vote and I think that might be behind Rees Mogg.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I think some time around this year/next year Cameron would be standing down. Given that May may have stayed at Home Secretary then she would have just had to resign because of Windrush, then I suspect Osbourne would be lead candidate for Remain. I think there would still be a push for a Leave vote and I think that might be behind Rees Mogg.

In which case what aspects of a Brexit could be re sold after failure.
What new turn could Rees Mogg give to a failed idea given that he is unable to give the turn when Brexit won.

[Nearly Sane]

In which case what aspects of a Brexit could be re sold after failure.
What new turn could Rees Mogg give to a failed idea given that he is unable to give the turn when Brexit won.

same reason there are still those arguing for Remain. It doesn't stop the argument.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

same reason there are still those arguing for Remain. It doesn't stop the argument.

One is tempted to ask what the reasons FOR brexit are at this stage, but that isn't in the spirit of this.

I doubt that we would have even heard of Rees Mogg though except perhaps in any tory assault on workers rights a la Beecroft.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

same reason there are still those arguing for Remain. It doesn't stop the argument.

Boris would have challenged Osborn for PM in 2018 with a leave agenda, maybe.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What if Ed Miliband had won.
No Brexit?
No Farage?
No Mogg?
Johnson perhaps

[jeremyp]

What if Ed Miliband had won.
No Brexit?
No Farage?
No Mogg?
Johnson perhaps

No income tax?
No VAT?
No money back?
No guarantee?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No income tax?
No VAT?
No money back?
No guarantee?

Next year we'll all be Miwionaires wodders.

[Sassy]

Thought an alternative history thread might be a bit of fun and useful to take the heat out of the politics board as well as offering alternative worlds where normality was the norm rather than the real dystopia we find ourselves in.
We could do

What if John Major had won in 1997
What if Wizard of Oz had been filmed as a cartoon
What if Reg Varney had landed the part of James Bond
What if the world was flat etc.

To kick off what if Gordon Brown had called that election in 2007?
David Cameron would be out of a job
Theresa May beats George Osborne in a leadership contest
Theresa May narrowly defeats AlanJohnson in 2012 election but her poll plummets after awkward
Performance in TV debate.
May refuses referendum in Scotland
Introduces austerity in U.K.
Growth of UKIP
2017 election May narrowly defeats Labour in coalition with UKIPS two MPs with promise of referendum on Europe.Last Tory MP dismissed from Scotland.

What if's don't count I am afraid. They do nothing to change or to make things better.

What are you going to do  now?  would be a better way forward...Looking back us useless at this stage.

[Robbie]

Agree that looking back is *future Sassy.

All we can do is live in the present and hope for the best. Life goes on regardless.

I remember when I was newly married (1986), for a few years after there was great hardship amongst many. Every Friday on the evening news we heard about companies closing down and people being unemployed. People having houses repossessed, houses that had cost a bomb and were auctioned for peanuts, they were worth far less than a few years previously. Fast forward,things vastly improved.

We get through these things. However it seems the politicians don't really learn, you'd think they would.

*I meant futile

[Aruntraveller]

Looking back us useless at this stage.

I couldn't possibly comment, others would disagree though:

"Study the past if you would define the future."

Confucius

[Robbie]

Learning from past mistakes is good but 'what if' is futile. We can't go back in time.

[Aruntraveller]

Learning from past mistakes is good but 'what if' is futile. We can't go back in time.

In the sense it is used in this thread possibly although I think it still has merit as it shows people that you can think about events in a different way.

But in real life I think it would be really useful if people stopped and thought "What if?" and then looked at all the potential outcomes.

For instance if David Cameron had thought: What if we hold a referendum on membership of the EU?

What could possibly go wrong? What permutations will our whacky, old fashioned, whimsical malformed democracy throw up? How will our allies in Europe react? What if at the same time a crazed madmen got into power in the USA?

All very unlikely I know. But here we are......

What if David Cameron had thought it through.

[Robbie]

Yeah, life is full of 'if onlys'.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Learning from past mistakes is good but 'what if' is futile. We can't go back in time.

We are making an excellent job as a country of going back to the 19th century.

[Harrowby Hall]

We are making an excellent job as a country of going back to the 19th century.

No Vlad. I think you have got this wrong. We are making an attempt to be up there with the best.

Theresa May wants the United Kingdom (or what's left of it) to become   ...


   ... the Venezuela of Europe.