Author Topic: We should remember them, too.  (Read 4234 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: We should remember them, too.
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2018, 12:53:33 PM »
Ehhhhhhhhh?
Because if you did that you might have the right end.

Nearly Sane

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Re: We should remember them, too.
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2018, 01:03:44 PM »
As this is our annual remembrance thread, I will post my annual link to the Best Bits threads where Gonnagle saved FastFlint's post

Roses

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Re: We should remember them, too.
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2018, 01:41:29 PM »
Because if you did that you might have the right end.


I have no idea what you are talking about?
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Steve H

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Re: We should remember them, too.
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2018, 01:42:45 PM »

I have no idea what you are talking about?
He's saying you had got the wrong end of the stick.  ::)
I came to realise that every time we recognise something human in creatures, we are also recognising something creaturely in ourselves. That is central to the rejection of human supremacism as the pernicious doctrine it is.
Robert Macfarlane

Nearly Sane

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Re: We should remember them, too.
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2018, 01:45:12 PM »

I have no idea what you are talking about?
You got the wrong end of the stick about what white poppies are for.  So if you dropped your 'stick' and picked it up by the OTHER end you would have the right end of the stick.

Steve H

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Re: We should remember them, too.
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2018, 01:49:44 PM »

I have no idea what you are talking about?
Also, a statement should not be followed by a question mark.
I came to realise that every time we recognise something human in creatures, we are also recognising something creaturely in ourselves. That is central to the rejection of human supremacism as the pernicious doctrine it is.
Robert Macfarlane

jeremyp

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Re: We should remember them, too.
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2018, 04:49:49 PM »
I don't wear a poppy at all, and get glared at by the people collecting outside Tesco. I do donate to the village collection, but don't want to wear one. That should be my private business but apparently it's up there with going around wearing a sign saying 'I kick puppies'.

Exactly what I do. I was quite happy to wear a poppy right up until the moment that it became a heinous crime not to in the eyes of some.

The red poppy does not glorify war, quite the reverse, in fact. By remembering the lives thrown away during the wars, we remember that it is not a glorious thing, but a human tragedy.

The Germans nearly won the war in 1914. It really would have been better for everybody if they had.
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jeremyp

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Re: We should remember them, too.
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2018, 04:54:34 PM »
I don't think white poppies should be worn on Remembrance Day, which is to remember members of the armed forces killed during the two world wars. If people wish to remember those pacifists who refused to join up, it should be done on a different day, imo.
Is the white poppy about remembering pacifists or is it about remembering everybody? Several hundred thousand German civilians died of starvation in the First World War as a direct result of the British blockade and and the civilian deaths in the Second World War especially in Germany and the  USSR were astronomical.
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Roses

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Re: We should remember them, too.
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2018, 05:12:29 PM »
Is the white poppy about remembering pacifists or is it about remembering everybody? Several hundred thousand German civilians died of starvation in the First World War as a direct result of the British blockade and and the civilian deaths in the Second World War especially in Germany and the  USSR were astronomical.

I associate white poppies with pacifists as it was their idea in the first place. I have always associated Remembrance Day with those who died on active service in the World Wars and other wars since then.

In my home island the 2 minute silence on Remembrance Sunday was mandatory, as soon as the gun sounded at 11am all traffic was expected to stop, and people out and about to respect it. I still honour it.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Nearly Sane

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Re: We should remember them, too.
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2018, 05:34:33 PM »
I associate white poppies with pacifists as it was their idea in the first place. I have always associated Remembrance Day with those who died on active service in the World Wars and other wars since then.

In my home island the 2 minute silence on Remembrance Sunday was mandatory, as soon as the gun sounded at 11am all traffic was expected to stop, and people out and about to respect it. I still honour it.
Which doesn't mean the white poppy is about remembering pacifists.

Anchorman

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Re: We should remember them, too.
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2018, 07:04:11 PM »
One of the greatest advocates of the white poppy was the late Rev George McLeod - 'lord McLeod of Funary'; former Moderator of the General Assembly of the CofS and founder of the Iona Community. George earned the MC in WW1 as a serving officer, but, sickened by the carnage, became a pacifist after the war, and later a minister. He said "Red for the oceans of blood we all spilt. Whute for the cleaner earth we work for with no desire to spill more."
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Robbie

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Re: We should remember them, too.
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2018, 08:03:08 PM »
I associate white poppies with pacifists as it was their idea in the first place. I have always associated Remembrance Day with those who died on active service in the World Wars and other wars since then.

In my home island the 2 minute silence on Remembrance Sunday was mandatory, as soon as the gun sounded at 11am all traffic was expected to stop, and people out and about to respect it. I still honour it.

I never remember it until afterwards. Dislike the television programmes, the cenotaph business and the Remembrance concert at the RAH but that's just personal preference, I understand people who do go for it.

Like others on here I see no conflict between wearing a white poppy for pacifism and a red one to honour those who died. Not surprising many who saw active service later became pacifists - & I haven't got hold of the wrong end of the stick. I do object to people being made to feel they are wrong if they don't commemorate in some way.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 08:22:27 PM by Robbie »
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Steve H

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Re: We should remember them, too.
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2018, 10:53:09 PM »
The red poppy is for remembrance of all those who have died in wars, and the white poppy is for the hope for a future without war. It isn't specifically about pacifism or conscientious objectors.
I came to realise that every time we recognise something human in creatures, we are also recognising something creaturely in ourselves. That is central to the rejection of human supremacism as the pernicious doctrine it is.
Robert Macfarlane

Roses

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Re: We should remember them, too.
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2018, 08:51:19 AM »
I never remember it until afterwards. Dislike the television programmes, the cenotaph business and the Remembrance concert at the RAH but that's just personal preference, I understand people who do go for it.

Like others on here I see no conflict between wearing a white poppy for pacifism and a red one to honour those who died. Not surprising many who saw active service later became pacifists - & I haven't got hold of the wrong end of the stick. I do object to people being made to feel they are wrong if they don't commemorate in some way.


You might not be here now, if it wasn't for those who sacrificed their lives for future generations.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Anchorman

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Re: We should remember them, too.
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2018, 09:06:22 AM »
You might not be here now, if it wasn't for those who sacrificed their lives for future generations.
Hang on. Have you lookedat WW1? The Germans had universal male sufferage and a rudimentary welfarestate. Those young menslaughtered for 'king and country' did not even have the right - unless they were over 25 - to vote. The pension scheme was far more rudimentary. It could be argued that the German state was more 'modern' in outlook than that of britain. In anycase, theconflict was not aclash of civiisations; ideologies or the rest - it was a clash of imperialism; led mainly by those who thought their status in life was better than those who were butchered for them, regardless of whichever flag theywere told to fight for.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Rhiannon

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Re: We should remember them, too.
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2018, 10:15:47 AM »

You might not be here now, if it wasn't for those who sacrificed their lives for future generations.

That may or may not be true, but why does that mean someone is wrong for not watching a service, or wearing both a white and red poppy? White poppies remember all the fallen, not just the British armed forces. They remember, for example, all the civilians who died in the bombing raids at home and abroad.

Roses

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Re: We should remember them, too.
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2018, 10:56:45 AM »
Remembrance Day is to honour those members of the armed services who died in the World wars and conflicts since then. Of course civilian deaths in war are terrible and maybe a day to specifically remember them too should be set aside.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Anchorman

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Re: We should remember them, too.
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2018, 10:59:26 AM »
That may or may not be true, but why does that mean someone is wrong for not watching a service, or wearing both a white and red poppy? White poppies remember all the fallen, not just the British armed forces. They remember, for example, all the civilians who died in the bombing raids at home and abroad.
 


Exsctly.
The white poppy remembers the Americans, Russians Indians,Africans - and, yes, Japanese, Germans and the rest - as well as 'our boys'.
It remembers all those who died...the miners in the pits who were crushed - and their deaths unreported; factory workers, policemwn, whatever - every bit as vital to the 'war effort' but never given the same kudos.
On the unday before Rememberance Sunday each year, we have a pignant service in and outside church; two lit miners' lamps (Glennies) arelaid on the Communion table, and a poem recalling the hell of the underground miner is read. After the service, a wreath is laid at the 'miners cross'; two pit props welded to form a cross, on a green, tree rimmed hill next to the Kirk...the hill was the remains of a coal tip, now landscaped.
The miners who died underground were every bit as dead as the soldiers who were butchered for vainglory in France.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Anchorman

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Re: We should remember them, too.
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2018, 11:06:31 AM »
Remembrance Day is to honour those members of the armed services who died in the World wars and conflicts since then. Of course civilian deaths in war are terrible and maybe a day to specifically remember them too should be set aside.



So: which are more important?
The men butchered for the cause of imperialism in WW1, or those who died in mine or factory without a gun to defend them?
Are they not every bit as dead?

Yet they swore no silly oath to 'king and country' and got no bits of tin to wear on their chest to prove their importance.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Nearly Sane

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Re: We should remember them, too.
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2018, 11:16:54 AM »
Remembrance Day is to honour those members of the armed services who died in the World wars and conflicts since then. Of course civilian deaths in war are terrible and maybe a day to specifically remember them too should be set aside.
Surely the never again aspect applies to everyone who died? Why would you separate people out?

Roses

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Re: We should remember them, too.
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2018, 12:01:09 PM »
Surely the never again aspect applies to everyone who died? Why would you separate people out?

Because Remembrance Day is about those in the armed forces that died in the world wars and other conflicts, not our hopes for the future, imo.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Nearly Sane

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Re: We should remember them, too.
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2018, 12:05:53 PM »
Because Remembrance Day is about those in the armed forces that died in the world wars and other conflicts, not our hopes for the future, imo.
If we don't give thought to the future the remembrance is pointless

Roses

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Re: We should remember them, too.
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2018, 12:15:42 PM »
If we don't give thought to the future the remembrance is pointless


Something on which we will have to agree to differ.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Rhiannon

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Re: We should remember them, too.
« Reply #48 on: October 26, 2018, 12:38:08 PM »
Because Remembrance Day is about those in the armed forces that died in the world wars and other conflicts, not our hopes for the future, imo.

I think that the red poppy has always been about learning lessons from the past and taking them into the future.

Aruntraveller

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Re: We should remember them, too.
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2018, 01:02:44 PM »
I always thought the subtext of "Lest we Forget" was that it could so easily happen again if we do forget. So FLoo I do think you are wrong. It is as much about remembering the people but also learning from it, remembering what happened to avoid it in the future.

Whether we are entirely successful in that respect is open to much debate.
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