Free Speech

[Roses]

I am of the opinion speech should only be free to a point, but not if it is likely to be harmful to other people. Encouraging violence or emotional harm is despicable, and must be stamped down upon. As I said on another thread, the notices, which were common when I was young, stating, 'No blacks here', were disgusting! Should it be acceptable to taunt the disabled or homosexuals, those in favour of free speech, would state it is!

Should one be able to say whatever one likes, or should hate speech be illegal?

[ad_orientem]

It rather depends upon what you mean by hate speech, doesn't it. Would it include merely voicing an opinion? And how do you enforce it  and not only that but fairly and equally?

[Stranger]

As I said on another thread, the notices, which were common when I was young, stating, 'No blacks here', were disgusting!

That's discrimination, which is a separate issue to free speech.

[Nearly Sane]

The wiki entry covers some of the cases that have been dealt with as regards hate speech. Leaving aside the differences in different legal jurisdictions in the UK, it seems fair to say that there isn't necessarily an easily seen consistent position.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_the_United_Kingdom

[Humph Warden Bennett]

I am of the opinion speech should only be free to a point, but not if it is likely to be harmful to other people. Encouraging violence or emotional harm is despicable, and must be stamped down upon. As I said on another thread, the notices, which were common when I was young, stating, 'No blacks here', were disgusting! Should it be acceptable to taunt the disabled or homosexuals, those in favour of free speech, would state it is!

Should one be able to say whatever one likes, or should hate speech be illegal?

What about discrimination against children?

[Roses]

What about discrimination against children?

What sort of discrimination do you mean?

[Humph Warden Bennett]

What sort of discrimination do you mean?

I would have thought it obvious. Signs that say "No children allowed".

[Harrowby Hall]

Like outside strip clubs?

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Like outside strip clubs?

No, signs in guest house windows.

[Roses]

I would have thought it obvious. Signs that say "No children allowed".

I don't see that as discrimination, as some places aren't suitable for children, like some guest houses.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

I don't see that as discrimination, as some places aren't suitable for children, like some guest houses.

So having made your usual rant about discrimination against blacks, and homosexuals, you are happy for there to be discrimination against children?

[jeremyp]

I am of the opinion speech should only be free to a point, but not if it is likely to be harmful to other people. Encouraging violence or emotional harm is despicable, and must be stamped down upon. As I said on another thread, the notices, which were common when I was young, stating, 'No blacks here', were disgusting! Should it be acceptable to taunt the disabled or homosexuals, those in favour of free speech, would state it is!

Should one be able to say whatever one likes, or should hate speech be illegal?

The problem about hate speech is who gets to define what hate speech is. For example, a Christian in government might decide that it is illegal to write "the Christian god is a psychotic monster" on web sites, because it is hateful to his followers and then you would find yourself in the slammer.

[Roses]

The problem about hate speech is who gets to define what hate speech is. For example, a Christian in government might decide that it is illegal to write "the Christian god is a psychotic monster" on web sites, because it is hateful to his followers and then you would find yourself in the slammer.

The god character in the Bible is a psychotic monster, which is no more credible than the Voldemort character in the Harry Potter books, imo. Stating one's opinion of a character, which in all probability doesn't exist, is very different to saying hateful things about the colour of a person's skin or their sexuality.

[jeremyp]

The god character in the Bible is a psychotic monster,

But if a Christian in government decides that saying so is hate speech, you would be in serious trouble.

Stating one's opinion of a character, which in all probability doesn't exist, is very different to saying hateful things about the colour of a person's skin or their sexuality.

Would it be hate speech to make jokes about the stereotypical miserliness of Scottish people? Or their stereotypical love of everything deep fat fried? Would it be hate speech to call somebody who is opposed to same sex marriage a bigot? Where would you draw the line and how would you justify your line as being the right one?

[Roses]

But if a Christian in government decides that saying so is hate speech, you would be in serious trouble.
Would it be hate speech to make jokes about the stereotypical miserliness of Scottish people? Or their stereotypical love of everything deep fat fried? Would it be hate speech to call somebody who is opposed to same sex marriage a bigot? Where would you draw the line and how would you justify your line as being the right one?

God is a character in a book, there is no evidence it exists. There is evidence those north of the border are actual human beings, as strange as that might sound. Now I had better put on my flak jacket and helmet!

[Sebastian Toe]

God is a character in a book, there is no evidence it exists.

That however true it might be, would not stop a government passing laws in it's favour an therefore making your activities illegal.

[Roses]

That however true it might be, would not stop a government passing laws in it's favour an therefore making your activities illegal.

That is true.

[jeremyp]

God is a character in a book, there is no evidence it exists.

That's not the point. The point is a Christian might make it hate speech to say so.

There is evidence those north of the border are actual human beings, as strange as that might sound. Now I had better put on my flak jacket and helmet!

Of course they are human. Please answer the damn question.

Here's a Scotsman joke (sensitive Scots should look away now):

Nobody thought Mel Gibson could play a Scot but look at him now! Alcoholic and a racist!

Should that be hate speech?  Yes or no?

[ProfessorDavey]

Here's a Scotsman joke (sensitive Scots should look away now):

Should that be hate speech?  Yes or no?

But Frankie Boyle is himself a Scot - so he is taking the piss out of himself and his fellow countrymen. I think it is well established that members of a group who might be subject to hate speech can say things in a self depreciating manner about themselves that we would frown upon or denounce were it so come from others.

So it has become pretty well taboo for anyone to use the N-word ... except for black people. Likewise for certain derogatory terms used for gay people, that are liberally used within the gay community.

So for Frankie Boyle (as a Scot) to make that joke is broadly acceptable, as he is, in effect attacking himself. For a non Scot to do so ... well not so much.

[Free Willy]

Apparently Frankie Boyle couldn't go on stage once because he ''felt a bit funny''. His manager told him to ''get on quickly before it wore off''

[Gordon]

Apparently Frankie Boyle couldn't go on stage once because he ''felt a bit funny''. His manager told him to ''get on quickly before it wore off''

I do hope you blew the dust off that old joke, Vlad, before inflicting it on us deploying it yet again.

[jeremyp]

But Frankie Boyle is himself a Scot - so he is taking the piss out of himself and his fellow countrymen. I think it is well established that members of a group who might be subject to hate speech can say things in a self depreciating manner about themselves that we would frown upon or denounce were it so come from others.

So it has become pretty well taboo for anyone to use the N-word ... except for black people. Likewise for certain derogatory terms used for gay people, that are liberally used within the gay community.

So for Frankie Boyle (as a Scot) to make that joke is broadly acceptable, as he is, in effect attacking himself. For a non Scot to do so ... well not so much.

If I, an Englishman, said it, would it be hate speech? Should I go to jail for it?

[ProfessorDavey]

If I, an Englishman, said it, would it be hate speech? Should I go to jail for it?

I thought hate crimes were linked to protected characteristics.

I'm struggling to see which protected characteristic being Scottish comes under.

[jeremyp]

I thought hate crimes were linked to protected characteristics.

I'm struggling to see which protected characteristic being Scottish comes under.

Somebody could quite easily decide that, as Scots are a minority of people in the UK, being Scottish could become a protected characteristic.

You seem to be getting hung up on the details. Should I be put in jail if I merely insult the members of a protected group?

[ProfessorDavey]

You seem to be getting hung up on the details. Should I be put in jail if I merely insult the members of a protected group?

It would depend entirely on the context and nature of the insult, but would have to be very severe and threatening for you to end up in jail.

That doesn't mean that more minor insults can be made with impunity - there are potential actions and sanctions for lesser 'offenses', including disciplinary action in the work place. So you might not get thrown in jail if you opined that black people are all lazy, but you might lose your job.