The Vagina Monologues and erasure

[jeremyp]

This is a critically acclaimed feminist play I haven't seen, to my regret, or so I thought.

It appears that the play is now off limits because it excludes some women (guess which ones).

https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2018/11/emu_group_ends_the_vagina_mono.html

I've always feared a dystopian future. Now I think I am living in it.

[ad_orientem]

LOL!

[Aruntraveller]

Clearly ludicrous.

Next time I go and see King Lear, I shall complain on the grounds that it excludes gay men. 

Just write a play that addresses your issues FFS.

[Robbie]

Depressing news & this sort of attitude seems to have crept up behind most of us and now taking over.

I read the Vagina Monologues and saw it some years ago.  Jeremy you can get it on dvd and the book from Amazon.  The play is also on Youtube.  I might watch it again and re-read the book.

[Steve H]

You can't live in any kind of future.

[ad_orientem]

I don't think anyone could pay me enough to watch something like that (I think I'd rather take a kick to the bollocks). Anyway, I think the whole thing is hilarious. You couldn't make it up: Feminist play not shown for not being inclusive of men who think they're women. LOL!

[Free Willy]

This is a critically acclaimed feminist play I haven't seen, to my regret, or so I thought.

It appears that the play is now off limits because it excludes some women (guess which ones).

https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2018/11/emu_group_ends_the_vagina_mono.html

I've always feared a dystopian future. Now I think I am living in it.

Just wait ...In 30 years time they will all be alt right.

[Robbie]

I don't think anyone could pay me enough to watch something like that (I think I'd rather take a kick to the bollocks). Anyway, I think the whole thing is hilarious. You couldn't make it up: Feminist play not shown for not being inclusive of men who think they're women. LOL!

You are simplifying too much. It was a very good play & book. Something I felt, on reading, should have prompted women to encourage men to read (those men who have no idea). I understand your hesitation to engage but there are a few synopses online which may well make you reassess your opinion. Some of the writing is humorous btw, probably to make it softer reading for men. Talk to your partner and ask her what she thinks!

However I get your last sentence plus the LOL. The women now objecting do not have vaginas which - er.......didn't happen in my or your day.

[wigginhall]

The scorn shown by ad-o is one reason that the trans movement is so defensive, of course, they face much worse in terms of abuse.  I think the reaction to this play is over the top, but I can see how it happens.  But it probably makes the environment worse for trans people, as they come across as puritanical.

[ad_orientem]

The scorn shown by ad-o is one reason that the trans movement is so defensive, of course, they face much worse in terms of abuse.  I think the reaction to this play is over the top, but I can see how it happens.  But it probably makes the environment worse for trans people, as they come across as puritanical.

Scorn is not so far off the mark, namely because the whole thing is so absurd. This is the monster that has been created by some, some with and agenda which is bound to confuse or hurt, even children, such as one school in Brighton which claims to have 76 pupils who identify as trans or gender fluid. Now how do you explain such an anomoly? Now you have people saying the Vagina Monolgues isn't inclusive enough because " not all women have vaginas"? Serously, you couldn't make this stuff up!

[Aruntraveller]

Scorn is not so far off the mark, namely because the whole thing is so absurd. This is the monster that has been created by some, some with and agenda which is bound to confuse or hurt, even children, such as one school in Brighton which claims to have 76 pupils who identify as trans or gender fluid. Now how do you explain such an anomoly? Now you have people saying the Vagina Monolgues isn't inclusive enough because " not all women have vaginas"? Serously, you couldn't make this stuff up!

There are two separate issues here. One is the issue of censorship which as being approached here is nonsense. If we rewrote things to fit in with modern sensibilities we would have very little left of our cultural heritage.

The other is the acceptance and identification of trans people. How we proceed in this area is fraught with difficulties as we are frequently dealing with young people and their emotions and feelings. I would politely suggest that scorn does not help.

[wigginhall]

And trans people face bullying, abuse, physical attacks, in an environment where someone can use the word "monster"..

[Steve H]

I'm not happy with this "identify as" bollocks that's so fashionable nowadays, especially in children. It is wittily skewered in Private Eye's 'From the Message-boards' column, in 'Tim the Househusband', whose 13-year-old daughter, Poppy, "self-identifies as recreationally trans-gender". If adult blokes who are mentally capable want to dress up as women and get themselves castrated, that's their business, but it's worrying when kids at primary school start doing it (obviously, they can't get themselves castrated at that age, but it's still worrying).

[Aruntraveller]

I'm not happy with this "identify as" bollocks that's so fashionable nowadays, especially in children. It is wittily skewered in Private Eye's 'From the Message-boards' column, in 'Tim the Househusband', whose 13-year-old daughter, Poppy, "self-identifies as recreationally trans-gender". If adult blokes who are mentally capable want to dress up as women and get themselves castrated, that's their business, but it's worrying when kids at primary school start doing it (obviously, they can't get themselves castrated at that age, but it's still worrying).

When I said "identification" I wasn't wholly talking about self ID. There are processes that Trans people have to go through to be considered suitable for surgery etc. I am not at all an expert on this, but I also feel unease at people saying it's bollocks when you are dealing with real people and their feelings. I still remember people telling me I wasn't gay, how do you know for sure? Well I knew and guess what 50 years down the line I still am. I remember at the time how confusing that was, and how hurtful. I also know of people who on that type of advice went on to deny their sexuality with huge costs to them and their families.

Now transsexuality is a different issue and I have said before I don't understand this issue very well, and it troubles me that I don't. But I do know the last thing that is needed is derision and scorn. We are dealing with real people, many of whom are struggling with their feelings. I'm not sure Private Eye takes much heed of people's feelings, which might be OK if you are skewering a politician, but trans people who are just coming to terms with who they are, really?

[wigginhall]

You usually find that people who say it's bollocks, have very little experience of trans people, whether kids or not.

I think gender was a strait-jacket for many people, e.g., toxic masculinity.  But we've seen waves of resistance to repression, starting with women in the 19th century, then gays, now trans and gender non-conforming.  Of course, you are bound to get bigotry in all these areas, women should stay in the home, we don't want gays around here, and how can a man be a woman.   But I think it's unstoppable, people don't want to be strait-jacketed.  And a lot of the scorn is fear, isn't it?

[ad_orientem]

No, as with the example of the school I mentioned, how do you explain such an anomoly? It's clearly a case of young minds being deliberately confused by people with an agenda. Dangerous, I would say.

[Rhiannon]

I've been in a relationship with someone who is gender fluid. I'm actually very straight so it was a fascinating experience. Yet as a woman self identification without boundaries bothers me. It frightens me. And as I have said before, the thing that I think i share with all women I speak to is the experience of having this reproductive system, of bleeding or not, pregnancy or not, childbirth or not, menopause. From ten when my periods began til I die I will be trying to manage my body. If women want to share these experiences we aren't excluding those that haven't had them but are trying to understand something about ourselves.

jeremy is right, this is silencing of women's voices. It's erasure.

[Rhiannon]

The scorn shown by ad-o is one reason that the trans movement is so defensive, of course, they face much worse in terms of abuse.  I think the reaction to this play is over the top, but I can see how it happens.  But it probably makes the environment worse for trans people, as they come across as puritanical.

Transwomen and natal women should be allies. For me trans women - at least those vocal ones who insist on the kind of action being discussed here - don't come across as puritanical, they come across as wanting to appropriate my identity and silence my voice. Is it any wonder there is so much fear? 

[Rhiannon]

No, as with the example of the school I mentioned, how do you explain such an anomoly? It's clearly a case of young minds being deliberately confused by people with an agenda. Dangerous, I would say.

You could have people wanting to relocate because the school is inclusive.

But then a teacher told me recently that just about every girl in his class came out as gay. Teens want to fit in. I don't think there is a dangerous agenda at work, just kids doing what kids do - following whatever happens to be cool. Some, of course, will be genuinely trans.

[Aruntraveller]

I've been in a relationship with someone who is gender fluid. I'm actually very straight so it was a fascinating experience. Yet as a woman self identification without boundaries bothers me. It frightens me. And as I have said before, the thing that I think i share with all women I speak to is the experience of having this reproductive system, of bleeding or not, pregnancy or not, childbirth or not, menopause. From ten when my periods began til I die I will be trying to manage my body. If women want to share these experiences we aren't excluding those that haven't had them but are trying to understand something about ourselves.

jeremy is right, this is silencing of women's voices. It's erasure.

This is one of the tensions at the heart of this problem. How do you honour the unique experience of women and at the same time make space for trans women. I would argue the way not to do that is by changing the definition of woman to include trans women, but rather allow trans women their own space and definition. There are issues that will be common to both, but there are also significant differences between the two which I do feel requires differentiation.

[wigginhall]

Well, ad-o is just running with his bigoted agenda.  There may be an element of copycat, but you won't solve that through more repression.  I think the kids who are serious will eventually be seen by professionals, who will discuss social transition.  A lot of kids give up GNC at puberty anyway.

[wigginhall]

This is one of the tensions at the heart of this problem. How do you honour the unique experience of women and at the same time make space for trans women. I would argue the way not to do that is by changing the definition of woman to include trans women, but rather allow trans women their own space and definition. There are issues that will be common to both, but there are also significant differences between the two which I do feel requires differentiation.

I think some trans women would fear segregation, when they could become targets of bigotry.   Thus, trans toilets would be an open invitation to thugs.   I don't know about the overall issue of women and trans women, eventually, there will probably be compromise and negotiation. 

But, censorship is a bad move.

I worked with GNC people in therapy, and I think it is here to stay.  Bigots like ad-o may frighten people, but it won't stop them, of course, they are prone to suicide, there is so much bullying.

[ad_orientem]

Ah yes, well done , Wiggs!

[Rhiannon]

This is one of the tensions at the heart of this problem. How do you honour the unique experience of women and at the same time make space for trans women. I would argue the way not to do that is by changing the definition of woman to include trans women, but rather allow trans women their own space and definition. There are issues that will be common to both, but there are also significant differences between the two which I do feel requires differentiation.

Exactly this, Trent.

[Rhiannon]

I think some trans women would fear segregation, when they could become targets of bigotry.   Thus, trans toilets would be an open invitation to thugs.   I don't know about the overall issue of women and trans women, eventually, there will probably be compromise and negotiation. 

But, censorship is a bad move.

I worked with GNC people in therapy, and I think it is here to stay.  Bigots like ad-o may frighten people, but it won't stop them, of course, they are prone to suicide, there is so much bullying.

I've no problem using gender neutral loos, in fact there are several in my local town and I often bump into a very embarrassed looking bloke washing his hands. I want to welcome trans women into my space but there also has to be boundaries that are natal women only. Public loos may not be that space, a rape support group might be.

And remember that as a natal woman I am a survivor of sexual assault, domestic abuse and bigotry. That's an experience I have no problem sharing with trans women, it's a fact of daily life for me.