Definitions

[Steve H]

Trump - a loud, offensive fart (British slang).
Trumpery (noun and adjective) - (articles that are) showy but worthless, delusive, or shallow.
T'rump - the buttocks (Yorkshire dialect).
T'rump - a small or unimportant remnant (Yorkshire dialect).
The last trump - the end of the world.

[Roses]

The sooner Trump is Trumped the better.

[Owlswing]

The sooner Trump is Trumped the better.

As long as he is firmly on the side of the NRA it ain't likely to happen . . . unfortuneately it is likely to get him his second term.

[Roses]

As long as he is firmly on the side of the NRA it ain't likely to happen . . . unfortuneately it is likely to get him his second term.

You could well be right, which is very depressing to say the least.

[Steve H]

As was said somewhere else, either on here or on facebook, I can't remember which, the power of some lobby groups, both in America and here, is a scandal. They should be legally curtailed. Another example - about which the other post was - is AIPAC, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, which ensures that no anti-Zionist president will be elected, and ensures that all American politicians in any senior position kow-tow to Israel. There are some courageous Senators and Representatives who speak out against Israel's injustices and defend the Palestinian cause, especially Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib, newly-elected, but their stand for justice ensures that they'll never progress.

[jeremyp]

There are some courageous Senators and Representatives who speak out against Israel's injustices and defend the Palestinian cause,

The Palestinian cause is to wipe Israel off the map.

[Steve H]

The Palestinian cause is to wipe Israel off the map.

Nonsense - moderate Palestinians, and people of goodwill generally, want a peaceful, two-state solution. Personally, I prefer a one-state solution, with Israel as currently constituted ceasing to exist, and it and the Occupied Territories being replaced with a single new state, which would be a secular democracy, in which all religions had a guaranteed right to worship and use peaceful means to try to gain converts, but none had any special privileges, and in which all people of any race, creed or skin-colour had equal rights of immigration.The Palestinian refugres would have a right of return or compensation for a limited period after the founding of the state, say two years, after which everyone would be equal and no-one would have any special priviliges - just like (more or less) the USA, France, and many other mature democracies, in fact.

[Owlswing]

Nonsense - moderate Palestinians, and people of goodwill generally, want a peaceful, two-state solution. Personally, I prefer a one-state solution, with Israel as currently constituted ceasing to exist, and it and the Occupied Territories being replaced with a single new state, which would be a secular democracy, in which all religions had a guaranteed right to worship and use peaceful means to try to gain converts, but none had any special privileges, and in which all people of any race, creed or skin-colour had equal rights of immigration.The Palestinian refugres would have a right of return or compensation for a limited period after the founding of the state, say two years, after which everyone would be equal and no-one would have any special priviliges - just like (more or less) the USA, France, and many other mature democracies, in fact.

Sorry, Son, but you just lost me - I'm Jewish by birth, and the militant Palistinians are no different from the Nazi's (who wiped out vituallly all my Dutch Jewish ancestors in Holland at Auschwitz) in that they want the complete destruction of the Jewish nation and it is these Palistians, backed by hard-line Arab states, who call the tune, NOT the moderates.

[ad_orientem]

Sorry, Son, but you just lost me - I'm Jewish by birth, and the militant Palistinians are no different from the Nazi's (who wiped out vituallly all my Dutch Jewish ancestors in Holland at Auschwitz) in that they want the complete destruction of the Jewish nation and it is these Palistians, backed by hard-line Arab states, who call the tune, NOT the moderates.

That's rather ironic, isn't it, because you look at Gaza and the West Bank Israel's stronghold on them is not much different to that of the Jewish ghettos in Nazi Germany. You would have thought they'd learnt some compasion.

[jeremyp]

Nonsense - moderate Palestinians, and people of goodwill generally, want a peaceful, two-state solution.

So do moderate Israelis. However, it isn’t the moderates that are the problem.

Personally, I prefer a one-state solution, with Israel as currently constituted ceasing to exist, and it and the Occupied Territories being replaced with a single new state, which would be a secular democracy, in which all religions had a guaranteed right to worship and use peaceful means to try to gain converts, but none had any special privileges, and in which all people of any race, creed or skin-colour had equal rights of immigration.

That’s closer to the current state of Israel than the Palestinian controlled territories. If you’re gay, a woman or the wrong religion, you are better off in Israel than in the Palestinian areas.

[jeremyp]

That's rather ironic, isn't it, because you look at Gaza and the West Bank Israel's stronghold on them is not much different to that of the Jewish ghettos in Nazi Germany. You would have thought they'd learnt some compasion.

Gaza is controlled by a Palestinian terrorist organisations called Hamas.

[ad_orientem]

Gaza is controlled by a Palestinian terrorist organisations called Hamas.

As is often said, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. I'm not saying my comparison is exact. My point was that after what Jews suffered under the Nazi's Israel, a Jewish state, would act a little more sympathetically.

[jeremyp]

As is often said, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. I'm not saying my comparison is exact.

In this man’s book, an organization that makes use of suicide bombers and home made rockets to target civilians is a terrorist organization.

My point was that after what Jews suffered under the Nazi's Israel, a Jewish state, would act a little more sympathetically.

Huh? The “Nazi’s Israel”. I suspect that the punctuation is wrong here.

[ad_orientem]

Perhaps, but you know what I mean. There are parallels.

[Steve H]

Gaza is controlled by a Palestinian terrorist organisations called Hamas.

And Isrel is controlled by a Jewish terrorist organisation called Likud.

[jeremyp]

And Isrel is controlled by a Jewish terrorist organisation called Likud.

As long as you understand that the situation in Israel and Palestine is far more complex than just "Palestine good, Israel bad" that's fine.

[Steve H]

As long as you understand that the situation in Israel and Palestine is far more complex than just "Palestine good, Israel bad" that's fine.

As long as you understand that Israel is the oppressor, and the Palestinians, however badly some of them behave, are the oppressed, that's fine.

[jeremyp]

As long as you understand that Israel is the oppressor,

The Israelis would argue that they are just trying to protect their country from people who want to annihilate them.

and the Palestinians, however badly some of them behave, are the oppressed, that's fine.

Quite a lot of oppression comes from their own leaders. Hamas is a fundamentalist Islamic terrorist outfit. Don't be a woman or a gay person or an apostate or definitely not a Jew and living in their area of control.

[Robbie]

I wonder if Oliphant has friends/close acquaintances/colleagues who are Muslim. If he has and discusses such matters with them, he might be surprised at the amount of anti-Israel sentiment such as 'Israel should be erased'. Shocked me too.

[Steve H]

The Israelis would argue that they are just trying to protect their country from people who want to annihilate them.

Their country exists, in its entirety, on land stolen from the original inhabitants.

Quite a lot of oppression comes from their own leaders. Hamas is a fundamentalist Islamic terrorist outfit. Don't be a woman or a gay person or an apostate or definitely not a Jew and living in their area of control.

As I've already made clear, I'm no uncritical defender of all Palestinians.

[jeremyp]

Their country exists, in its entirety, on land stolen from the original inhabitants.

So does ours.

The creation of the State of Israel was a huge mistake but complaining about that now is like, when somebody asks you for directions, saying "I wouldn't start from here".

As I've already made clear, I'm no uncritical defender of all Palestinians.

Well maybe you should offer some criticism of them occasionally then.

[Steve H]

So does ours.

The creation of the State of Israel was a huge mistake but complaining about that now is like, when somebody asks you for directions, saying "I wouldn't start from here".
Well maybe you should offer some criticism of them occasionally then.

Just like all those "critical friends" of Israel who in fact bend over backwards to defend the indefensible, and peddle all the tired old lies about Israel's history, and indulgin in whataboutery, you mean? People like this obnoxious little creep, one of those self-styled "critical friends".

[jeremyp]

Just like all those "critical friends" of Israel who in fact bend over backwards to defend the indefensible, and peddle all the tired old lies about Israel's history, and indulgin in whataboutery, you mean? People like this obnoxious little creep, one of those self-styled "critical friends".

Ha. You realise you are indulging in whataboutery yourself there.