Author Topic: Shamima Begum  (Read 18700 times)

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #100 on: February 19, 2019, 09:09:49 PM »
It baffles me that Begum has been picked on.  She did a stupid interview of course.  But hundreds have returned from Syria, some rehabilitated, some prosecuted, she would be heavily interrogated, of course.  It seems a wacky idea to me that she would return with a new baby, and do some terrorist act.  She would never see the child again.
I don't pretend to know what is going through Begum's mind or what her motivations are. What I do know is that according to Muslim traditions, Prophet Mohamed's sons died in infancy so children dying in infancy is a burden that practising Muslims try to accept they have to bear with patience and faith if it happens to them.

I also know that according to Muslim traditions, if a Muslim is going through suffering and they can't find anything to feel gratitude to Allah for, a Muslim is encouraged to take the view that Islam teaches that any suffering in this world is compensated by Allah erasing some of your sins on the Day of Judgement, and therefore a Muslim could at least feel gratitude for that mercy. These are the kind of beliefs that Begum has signed up for - she said she became religious and that she accepted the hardships of leaving Britain in order to live in an ISIS environment as part of her expression of her religious belief. She wanted to live among people, who presumably prioritised the blessings they would get in the next world over the hardships of this world - that is the basics of Muslim belief.

So while I think we should feel compassion for her hardship, it should not be ignored that hardship is a blessing in the belief system that resonates with her enough to have made her run away from a loving family to a failed state to marry an ISIS fighter and then say the things she is currently saying in interviews. I think she sees hardship as a blessing, so there is a silver lining to her current cloud.

And based on her view of beheaded fighters, I wouldn't be surprised if she sees compassion as a weakness and something she despises about British culture, and perversely she might actually respect the strength of resolve it took for the government to strip her of British citizenship, because that strength of resolve and disciplinary measures is what drew her to an ISIS caliphate. You might be trying to save someone who deep down doesn't want to be saved yet - like an addict she might need to hit rock bottom first to get a fresh perspective, and her interviews thus far don't give me the impression of someone who has hit rock bottom yet.
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Anchorman

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #101 on: February 20, 2019, 08:56:14 AM »
Christianity doesn't teach that our actions have no repecussions.
     





No; Christ taught us tolove,to care,to forgive and to give.
Boring stuff like that.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #102 on: February 20, 2019, 09:42:59 AM »
The Home Office have a strategy document which lays out the actions it would take should a woman who went to support ISIS have a baby and try and return. It says it would have a managed return to the UK, followed by criminal investigation, with deradicalistion and, care for the baby. The foreward to the document is written by Sajid Javid.

Roses

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #103 on: February 20, 2019, 10:26:30 AM »
It is the baby who is important, not Begum, he should be removed from her care as she is an unfit mother, imo.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #104 on: February 20, 2019, 11:14:53 AM »
The Home Office have a strategy document which lays out the actions it would take should a woman who went to support ISIS have a baby and try and return. It says it would have a managed return to the UK, followed by criminal investigation, with deradicalistion and, care for the baby. The foreward to the document is written by Sajid Javid.
Interesting strategy to get ISIS supporters out of Britain. Making them think they had nothing to lose so they might as well go and then pulling the rug out from under them once they left.
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Spud

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #105 on: February 20, 2019, 11:21:15 AM »
No; Christ taught us tolove,to care,to forgive and to give.
Boring stuff like that.
That's fine if the person shows remorse. She hasn't understood that the way the caliphate was set up was wrong (killing anyone who wouldn't convert etc) and so she still thinks that collateral damage from Western military action justifies terrorism.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 06:07:03 PM by Spud »

Roses

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #106 on: February 20, 2019, 11:31:21 AM »

No; Christ taught us tolove,to care,to forgive and to give.
Boring stuff like that.

Jesus didn't always get it right.   
 
A person has got to show they have repented of their actions first, before they can be forgiven, imo. Begum doesn't appear to think she has done anything wrong. Her comment about not being fazed by severed heads in a bin, was sick, and proved she is not suitable to raise a child.



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Nearly Sane

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #107 on: February 20, 2019, 11:45:26 AM »
Interesting strategy to get ISIS supporters out of Britain. Making them think they had nothing to lose so they might as well go and then pulling the rug out from under them once they left.
I don't think possible criminal prosecution is nothing to lose. And given the document is from 2018, that wasn't anything in Begum's mind when she left

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #108 on: February 20, 2019, 12:10:38 PM »
The Home Office have a strategy document which lays out the actions it would take should a woman who went to support ISIS have a baby and try and return. It says it would have a managed return to the UK, followed by criminal investigation, with deradicalistion and, care for the baby. The foreward to the document is written by Sajid Javid.
Yeah, well anyone can come up with sensible words and plans (or rubber stamp them) in periods of calm thought. But they are chucked straight in the bin when it's time for willy swinging.
 
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #109 on: February 20, 2019, 12:23:03 PM »
I don't think possible criminal prosecution is nothing to lose.
You're right - it's not nothing to lose but it's not much to lose. If I believed in the rightness of my cause the idea of criminal prosecution wouldn't phase me in the slightest. Losing my right to be a UK citizen may give me pause for thought though. Or it may not - depending on how much I believed in my cause - suffering for my cause and being some kind of martyr might actually strengthen my resolve, who knows. Especially if I was 15 and I wanted to feel special to someone and marry and have my own family and feel part of a greater cause, and I got to check out from my fairly mundane, normal life where my freedoms were restricted by my parents.

Quote
And given the document is from 2018, that wasn't anything in Begum's mind when she left
I didn't know that document was from 2018, but I agree that the idea of returning to the UK probably wouldn't have been in Begum's mind when she left. I don't think anything much was in Begum's mind when she left other than what was good for Begum.

Religion interpreted in a selfish way where you think only about yourself and the blessings you think you are earning for your deeds and intentions, and ignoring the rights of everybody else in your community to not have the effects of your interpretation of your religion imposed on them, is one way of practising religion I suppose - whether it is a particular interpretation of Islam such as ISIS terrorism being imposed on people or a particular interpretation of Christian love that wants to allow Begum to come back.

I can understand why people might think the ethical thing to do would be to not allow Begum back. And I can also see why people think it is unethical to shift the problem of Begum to another country once Britain allowed her to have British citizenship - for good or for bad the country that allowed you citizenship is usually stuck with you. I think the government will buy some time by revoking her citizenship until it goes through the courts, and then the courts may well overturn their decision, but at least the government can say they tried to follow the view of what I suspect is the majority of people in Britain. I can understand where Sajid Javid, the politician, is coming from. Why would a politician with any intelligence jeopardise his political support over a silly kid - we live in the real world?
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SusanDoris

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #110 on: February 20, 2019, 12:55:53 PM »
I can understand why people might think the ethical thing to do would be to not allow Begum back. And I can also see why people think it is unethical to shift the problem of Begum to another country once Britain allowed her to have British citizenship - for good or for bad the country that allowed you citizenship is usually stuck with you. I think the government will buy some time by revoking her citizenship until it goes through the courts, and then the courts may well overturn their decision, but at least the government can say they tried to follow the view of what I suspect is the majority of people in Britain. I can understand where Sajid Javid, the politician, is coming from. Why would a politician with any intelligence jeopardise his political support over a silly kid - we live in the real world?
Yes, this sounds right.

dipping into one or two bits of info on the internet today, I see that Begum's parents are Bangladeshi with, it would appear, nothing clear--cut, but I'm afraid I did not investigate further.
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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #111 on: February 20, 2019, 01:41:02 PM »
You're right - it's not nothing to lose but it's not much to lose. If I believed in the rightness of my cause the idea of criminal prosecution wouldn't phase me in the slightest. Losing my right to be a UK citizen may give me pause for thought though. Or it may not - depending on how much I believed in my cause - suffering for my cause and being some kind of martyr might actually strengthen my resolve, who knows. Especially if I was 15 and I wanted to feel special to someone and marry and have my own family and feel part of a greater cause, and I got to check out from my fairly mundane, normal life where my freedoms were restricted by my parents.
I didn't know that document was from 2018, but I agree that the idea of returning to the UK probably wouldn't have been in Begum's mind when she left. I don't think anything much was in Begum's mind when she left other than what was good for Begum.

Religion interpreted in a selfish way where you think only about yourself and the blessings you think you are earning for your deeds and intentions, and ignoring the rights of everybody else in your community to not have the effects of your interpretation of your religion imposed on them, is one way of practising religion I suppose - whether it is a particular interpretation of Islam such as ISIS terrorism being imposed on people or a particular interpretation of Christian love that wants to allow Begum to come back.

I can understand why people might think the ethical thing to do would be to not allow Begum back. And I can also see why people think it is unethical to shift the problem of Begum to another country once Britain allowed her to have British citizenship - for good or for bad the country that allowed you citizenship is usually stuck with you. I think the government will buy some time by revoking her citizenship until it goes through the courts, and then the courts may well overturn their decision, but at least the government can say they tried to follow the view of what I suspect is the majority of people in Britain. I can understand where Sajid Javid, the politician, is coming from. Why would a politician with any intelligence jeopardise his political support over a silly kid - we live in the real world?

Yeah I can understand where Javid's coming from, and that it is the real world where he is using this case to further his leadership ambitions by putting forward a diktat that may well fail in law and is likely to inflame the inclination of some of the media to politicise judicial decisions, while going back on a previous position, and if successful creates a dangerous precedent for the Home Secretary to make decisions like this for personal political gain, doesn't make it any better to me.

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #112 on: February 20, 2019, 02:21:05 PM »
That's fine if the person shows remorse. She hasn't understood that the way the caliphate was set up was wrong (killing anyone who wouldn't convert etc) and so she still thinks that collateral damage from Western military action justifies terrorism. Perhaps it would be better to revoke her citizenship and not let her back into the UK for 15 years, providing she can demonstrate remorse. Something like a shortened life sentence?
   


"if"?
So, Jesus said "Love one another, if they belong to your groyp",
Or
"Love your enemies,mif they've shown signs of repentence"?
Or,in answer to aqwuestion on forgiveness...
"Seventy times seven? Don't be daft.When they show sign of repentence, accept Me as Lord, jump through umpteen theological hoops, then, yes, go on, forgive them."?
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Nearly Sane

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #113 on: February 20, 2019, 05:51:02 PM »

Spud

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #114 on: February 20, 2019, 06:06:16 PM »
   


"if"?
So, Jesus said "Love one another, if they belong to your groyp",
Or
"Love your enemies,mif they've shown signs of repentence"?
Or,in answer to aqwuestion on forgiveness...
"Seventy times seven? Don't be daft.When they show sign of repentence, accept Me as Lord, jump through umpteen theological hoops, then, yes, go on, forgive them."?
I didn't say don't forgive her. I meant that if she doesn't admit she shouldn't have joined Isis then there are consequences.

Edit: I do think she should be allowed back, 100%.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 06:17:58 PM by Spud »

Gordon

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #115 on: February 20, 2019, 06:54:22 PM »
Article from The Guardian that reinforces the point NS made earlier re. Javid.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/20/sajid-javid-shamima-begum-conservative-leadership

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #116 on: February 20, 2019, 09:47:04 PM »
Yeah I can understand where Javid's coming from, and that it is the real world where he is using this case to further his leadership ambitions by putting forward a diktat that may well fail in law and is likely to inflame the inclination of some of the media to politicise judicial decisions, while going back on a previous position, and if successful creates a dangerous precedent for the Home Secretary to make decisions like this for personal political gain, doesn't make it any better to me.
Yes, the imperfections of politicians making political decisions. But that seems to be a consequence of leaders/ governments / MPs being chosen via an election process - they have to keep their voters happy. And their voters have their own biases, prejudices and agendas. Twitter users and the media are going to go after Javid or any politician through the use of selective quoting and headlines geared towards provoking a baying mob. Much like they did with Begum.

I think Javid wouldn't be very politically ambitious if he risked losing political support over Begum. IMO there are more important political issues to worry about than the problems of one silly kid sitting in a refugee camp in a failed state. If she manages to make it to Turkey and manages to wise up to the fact that the media are not her friends and stops giving interviews - there's a chance that the UK government might have had time to figure out what to do with her without the media breathing down their necks. They might have had time to gather evidence against her in order to prosecute her if she has committed a crime or they might have had time to figure out that she is not a serious threat to national interests/ security. 

At least this country has a system of judicial review of political decisions - but this can be a slow process, and I'm sure the government is hoping to delay things as long as possible as they have enough problems with the electorate due to Brexit. Begum's child might be ready to start nursery by the time she gets her citizenship back.   
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SusanDoris

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #117 on: February 21, 2019, 06:25:00 AM »
From what I heard on the radio yesterday, shamima Begum seems to have a rather inflated idea of her own value and importance. She seems somewhat surprised that she has not become a celebrity, other than as an item of news. 
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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #118 on: February 21, 2019, 06:36:28 AM »
From what I heard on the radio yesterday, shamima Begum seems to have a rather inflated idea of her own value and importance. She seems somewhat surprised that she has not become a celebrity, other than as an item of news.
None of which makes Javid's actions in pursuit of his leadership ambitions any more palatable.

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #119 on: February 21, 2019, 07:25:24 AM »
None of which makes Javid's actions in pursuit of his leadership ambitions any more palatable.
I don’t know - I’m not sure i’d want a politician aiming for leadership to display stupidity. And at this moment, given public opinion and Begum being of a non-British heritage, I think it was a smart move, though obviously it was not particularly indulgent of teenage stupidity and more importantly is worrying in the way it undermines due process. Did Parliament debate the legislation  that allows the Home Secretary these powers to revoke citizenship? Even if Begum had been of British heritage there would have been a call for her to not be allowed back in Britain, but it would have been more difficult to revoke citizenship.

 I suspect in this instance, with Begum being of non-British heritage, Javid can possibly get away with it because he’s brown and has a Muslim background even if he isn’t a practising Muslim. If someone like Boris Johnson or Theresa May had done it there might well have been a different media spin on the situation.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #120 on: February 21, 2019, 07:52:01 AM »
What you think of as being stupid appears to me about being principled.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #121 on: February 21, 2019, 09:33:55 AM »
I agree it would be principled - that’s certainly one way of looking at it.

Poor choice of words on my part - I meant stupid politically. Principled people rarely get elected or get to positions of leadership. It’s difficult to find a principled person with political ambitions who actually gets into a leadership position as they need to play the game to get party and public support. It seems the majority of their potential voters or political supporters are not particularly principled, especially when manipulated by the media. There was Mandela I suppose who was the exception but he had to spend 27 years in prison to reach his principles and still get elected.

What Javid has done is not overstepping the powers Parliament gave him. If the Parliamentary process of giving him those powers was followed, which appears to be the case, then it would seem Parliament (our elected MPs) decided (possibly after recent terrorist atrocities on UK soil and people going to Syria to fight who might return in a brutalised state of mind that posed a risk to the public) that it was correct (?) procedure to allow the Home Secretary to revoke citizenship if he or she decided it was conducive to the public good and this did not need to be dependent on a conviction for a terrorist offence, and to then have a judicial review of the decision afterwards. Maybe it’s time for Parliament to review the legislation it passed?

Though it's difficult to establish whether Javid's decision was based on his assessment of what was conducive to the public good, or what was conducive to the good of his political ambitions. I'm not sure another Home Secretary who did not have leadership ambitions would have made a different decision about what was conducive to the public good in light of the interviews Begum gave to the media and the public reaction to the media reports.

Hopefully her lawyer can advise Begum to shut up if she wants her citizenship back. It's odd that she claims she didn't want to be in the papers when she left to join ISIS, yet she has no problems giving interviews now. It's a bit of a circus - reminds me of Meghan Markle's family and the circus that surrounds their various press interviews. Maybe I'm wrong and Begum is quite media savvy after all and is hoping to make money from a book deal - Diary of a Pushy ISIS bride.
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Udayana

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #122 on: February 21, 2019, 11:01:48 AM »
...
Hopefully her lawyer can advise Begum to shut up if she wants her citizenship back. It's odd that she claims she didn't want to be in the papers when she left to join ISIS, yet she has no problems giving interviews now. It's a bit of a circus - reminds me of Meghan Markle's family and the circus that surrounds their various press interviews. Maybe I'm wrong and Begum is quite media savvy after all and is hoping to make money from a book deal - Diary of a Pushy ISIS bride.

You are right on the media circus ... Probably because the departure of the three schoolgirls was a story in itself, and also because Shamima Begum was found in Al-Hawl by a Times reporter looking for British jihadis. Then there is the added "human interest" of babies and dead children. Other fighters and women, have returned without much media attention.

There is really no way for her to make it to Turkey under her own steam. Possibly she could make it to Turkey or Iraq smuggled in by traffickers if someone put up the money. Otherwise her fate will probably be determined by the eventual outcome wrt. the camp following any eventual resolution of the Syrian war and Turkey/Kurdish conflict.

On the legislation, it seems to me that regulations are adopted on the main thrusts, not on the small print. Has anything ever failed to pass because it creates an unworkable bureaucratic nightmare?
 
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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #123 on: February 21, 2019, 11:51:46 AM »
Yes, ironic that fighters have returned apparently, with no fuss.  But she has been very naive.  She needed to confess and be full of regrets.   Seeming to justify the Manchester bombing went down like a dead balloon.  I wonder also if there is some misogyny around, a woman who goes to Syria, is the devil incarnate, whereas men are being men, silly buggers.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #124 on: February 21, 2019, 01:08:06 PM »
I think if there was a male ISIS supporter sitting in a refugee camp giving media interviews about how people should feel sorry for him and the government should help get him back to Britain rather than him making his own way back, his interviews would get a similar reaction. Especially if he said he still loved his fellow ISIS fighters and would wait for them to be let out of prison so he could have a happy reunion with his comrades. Begum voiced the idea that she could wait in Holland for her husband, whom she still loved, to get out of prison. She really should learn to avoid reporters or only agree to interviews that stick to a script or at the very least she should stick to a script.

A man would not be in her particular predicament - he wouldn’t be heavily pregnant. He would have been over there to fight and he might be injured or incapacitated. What happens to injured British fighters - did the government help bring them back? It will be interesting to see what happens to those fighters captured in Syria. This is a question of what happens to someone who joined ISIS before it became a crime to do so.

The problem is that it’s hard to prosecute people who left before new legislation made it a crime to go. If the CPS have no evidence of a criminal offence, it’s impossible to meet the court’s standards for evidence to mount a successful prosecution. It’s not likely there is helpful CCTV or DNA evidence or credible witnesses available from Syria. She doesn’t regret going to Syria and it sounds like she would still be a foreigner living in ISIS territory if her husband had not been captured and her dreams of her foreign Caliphate had not gone a bit pear-shaped. The public’s mood might well be due to violence suffered due to austerity cuts in the area of policing and crime but her reported responses to questions from reporters shows how disconnected she has become from the problems of people in Britain.

I don’t think the timing is going to be much better after a lengthy court case if Brexit happens.
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