Shamima Begum

[wigginhall]

Look on the bright side, it's good propaganda for the militants.  Muslim woman and child abandoned in the desert, etc.

[Nearly Sane]

Good article by the journalist who interviewed Begum.



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c329cc22-3527-11e9-b41a-ec1745518ba6

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Look on the bright side, it's good propaganda for the militants.  Muslim woman and child abandoned in the desert, etc.

I don't think they need any help in coming up with propaganda - from what I've heard they just make it up as they go along if any facts are inconvenient. Things like truth are pretty irrelevant when it comes to propaganda.

[Nearly Sane]

So because they lie we can behave in a way that make the lies true?

[Harrowby Hall]

Good article by the journalist who interviewed Begum.



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c329cc22-3527-11e9-b41a-ec1745518ba6

Thank you for directing us to an article which is firmly behind a paywall.

[Udayana]

Thank you for directing us to an article which is firmly behind a paywall.

Registering an account allows access to 2 articles a week without paying. The piece describes the current regime in the camp and Begum's mindset.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

So because they lie we can behave in a way that make the lies true?

I don't see how it would work if a Home Secretary decides policy based on the views of unhinged Muslim extremists while disregarding the electorate. I don't think he would retain public support for very long and I really can't see Javid risking political support for the government or jeopardising his own career at this crucial time over a runaway British girl. Successive British governments sell arms to regimes that bomb civilians so I don't think saving a girl from a refugee camp is going to make people see the British as some benevolent, welcoming nation.

Not sure who you are referring to when you say "we" as we, you and me, don't get to make the decisions about whether Begum is allowed back into the country. Legislation debated and passed by Parliament says that's the Home Secretary's job to review the information and make a decision, subject to judicial review.

[Harrowby Hall]

Shamima Begum has now lost her third child.

Sajid Javid played the populist card in stripping Shamima Begum of her British citizenship and may have thus unwittingly determined the death of an infant British citizen. In allowing a 15 year old Shamima Begum and her two, similarly aged, companions to leave the country, the UK government was complicit in her joining IS.

She should be brought back to the UK, made to participate in whatever "re-adjustment" processes that are considered appropriate to see if she can fit into a modern western democratic liberal society. Simply slamming the door in her face is a fine demonstration of the values deemed to be important in our civilised world.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

A lot of babies die unfortunately, even here in the UK, let alone in other parts of the world with poorer facilities. Part of the risk you accept if you leave the NHS for another country and get pregnant. I think quite a few civilised people probably think there are more important priorities that limited money and man hours should be spent on rather than attempting to extract Shamima Begum (or other Daesh members) from refugee camps in a war zone. The guidance from the foreign office seems to be:
 
"British nationals travelling or living overseas, particularly in areas where a crisis is more likely to occur, should take sensible precautions.... You’re responsible for your own personal safety....We have a duty of care to our employees and we won’t send our staff into a situation where we judge that their safety could be seriously at risk."

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-deal-with-a-crisis-overseas

Also, attempting to deradicalise them, with no guarantee that the dopey lot won't go and get themselves brainwashed again and go chasing after another utopia in a war zone, also has limited appeal given austerity etc. If there were few constraints on resources then yes of course, deradicalisation and ongoing monitoring by counsellors for at least 10 years seems useful.

[Harrowby Hall]

Gabriella, do you work at the Home Office?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

No. I do spend time working out income vs expenses though. I think it would be great and no doubt very civilised to help all these British people who have lost their way a bit but it does require funds and clearly there are lots of very worthy competing claims on the limited resources.

For example, if we're making money from our Saudi customers killing babies in Yemen, wouldn't it more civilised to send money to Yemen first?

[Nearly Sane]

No. I do spend time working out income vs expenses though. I think it would be great and no doubt very civilised to help all these British people who have lost their way a bit but it does require funds and clearly there are lots of very worthy competing claims on the limited resources.

For example, if we're making money from our Saudi customers killing babies in Yemen, wouldn't it more civilised to send money to Yemen first?

Except we do send money to Yemen. The question is surely about individual positions rather than sacrificing individual babies?

[jeremyp]

Shamima Begum has now lost her third child.

Sajid Javid played the populist card in stripping Shamima Begum of her British citizenship and may have thus unwittingly determined the death of an infant British citizen.

I think the death was all too predictable. If he was unwitting about this, he is unwitting full stop.

In allowing a 15 year old Shamima Begum and her two, similarly aged, companions to leave the country, the UK government was complicit in her joining IS.

I don't see how that follows. How could  they have been stopped from leaving the UK?

Simply slamming the door in her face is a fine demonstration of the values deemed to be important in our civilised world.

It's mob rule. I think the way she has been treated is shameful.

[SusanDoris]

Perhaps the passport she was carrying, and presumably had inspected, should have alerted someone and stopped her from leaving the country?
Perhaps her father, who, I heard on the radio  the other day, is now in Bangladesh, should not have taken his daughter to hear a radical preacher?

I don't know, of course, but I wish the reports  one hears were more impartial.

[Roses]

I am very sorry her poor little baby died, very sad. However, Begum is to blame for the mess she is in, if she had apologised for her stupidity and seen the error of her ways then maybe she would have been permitted to come back to the UK. She didn't, she seemed proud of her ISIS connections and their crimes. If she came back here and committed a terrorist act, the Government would be blamed for letting her return. In this instance they are damned if they do and damned if they don't!

[SusanDoris]

I am very sorry her poor little baby died, very sad. However, Begum is to blame for the mess she is in, if she had apologised for her stupidity and seen the error of her ways then maybe she would have been permitted to come back to the UK. She didn't, she seemed proud of her ISIS connections and their crimes. If she came back here and committed a terrorist act, the Government would be blamed for letting her return. In this instance they are damned if they do and damned if they don't!

It is not that she was not 'permitted' to come back, it is that she was in a place where there was no way she could get to an embassy or anyhthing like it. If, by some remote chance, things had been different, she might wel have been able to apply for assistance.

[Harrowby Hall]

I don't see how that follows. How could  they have been stopped from leaving the UK?

Apparently, the police and security services were aware of the three girls' plan but made attempt to warn their parents.

Since the girls were only 15 years of age they could have been prevented from leaving the UK - they did not have parental consent. I cannot recall the date of their travel but it may well have been in term time.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Except we do send money to Yemen. The question is surely about individual positions rather than sacrificing individual babies?

My point is pragmatic. Having a baby in a place with limited medical facilities, especially in a war zone, is dangerous for a mother and her baby, therefore Begum made a decision that resulted in her putting herself and any babies she may have in a very vulnerable position. There is no British embassy where she is, so no officials to help her, and if there were no aid workers or journalists willing to transport her and her baby out of the camp to a place with better medical facilities, the death of the baby is a predictably tragic outcome of travelling to a war zone and having a baby there. The foreign office makes it clear they don't send their people into risky situations, so they warn people not travel to dangerous places. Begum's current situation highlights the inevitable dangers of ignoring travel advice from the foreign office. Eventually the government may have to bring back the British jihadis but it will probably take some time to put together a process that won't cause a public backlash.

Talking to a journalist is another dangerous decision for a person to make when they have been supporting a group that beheads British aid workers and morally justifies rape of female prisoners whom it has taken as sex slaves. That decision to discuss the ethics of war and the ethics of terrorism on British soil with a British journalist to broadcast to the public put Begum in a very vulnerable position, and the outcome of Begum talking about these matters to a journalist has been predictably tragic, especially since many of her fellow British ISIS supporters made it back quietly without advertising their return by talking to journalists.

The journalist's audience have had the media focusing on cuts to their own services resulting in British deaths in Britain and many probably lead similar lives economically to the one Begum led before she left to join ISIS. So there is an irony to her appealing to voters for the mercy and compassion that she herself lacks. I can't see how politicians will not make political decisions about these issues, regardless of how many dead babies this leads to, and then wait for the courts to decide what is legally possible per the checks and balances of our political system.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

It's mob rule. I think the way she has been treated is shameful.

That's one way of describing elections I suppose. We have rule of law, so a legal challenge can be mounted against political decisions and it's up to the courts to decide whether the government has breached any laws.

Much like CAAT has done over the government's military aid and sale of weapons to Saudi to bomb civilians in Yemen, which has resulted in many dead babies. The government's arms sales to Saudi will continue while they go through the slow process of being challenged as unlawful in the Appeal courts in April 2019 following the July 2017 High Court ruling that the arms sales to Saudi were lawful. 

It doesn't look like the government has the time nor political will to pull together a repatriation process for runaway jihadis and their children so maybe they will just keep making noises about working on a plan to rescue these babies while the issue goes through the courts, unless the government senses that they will lose significant voter support for not intervening more quickly.

[SusanDoris]

Bit of a tangent: Some people seem to think that evolution has some kind of moral purpose that all human beings should be kind, loved, etc etc. This is patently not so, and a species survives when there are sufficient numbers who do survive. Such a species survives in spite of, or regardless of, those who try to destroy other human groups.

[jeremyp]

Apparently, the police and security services were aware of the three girls' plan but made attempt to warn their parents.

Since the girls were only 15 years of age they could have been prevented from leaving the UK - they did not have parental consent. I cannot recall the date of their travel but it may well have been in term time.

I apologize, I misunderstood what you meant. I thought you were talking about stopping people from leaving in general terms. If there was good evidence that these individuals were intending to go to Syria, then, yes, they should have been stopped.

[jeremyp]

That's one way of describing elections I suppose. We have rule of law, so a legal challenge can be mounted against political decisions and it's up to the courts to decide whether the government has breached any laws.

.

There was no election. The government gave in to the baying mob.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

There was no election. The government gave in to the baying mob.

I am assuming you don't mean the baying mob of British ISIS supporters whipped up by slick jihadi videos but a different baying mob whipped up by certain sections of the media? There will be an election - legally it has to happen at least every 5 years, and politicians are required to woo the baying mob, also known as voters, every election to persuade them to vote for them. So a lot of the time they give in to the baying mob.

Maybe the government wants to send a message that it isn't going to send its officials into a war zone and it will revoke certain people's citizenship if it is legal to do so - the courts may overturn the government's decision. Maybe the government's thinking on this occasion happens to be in sync with the people who want Begum's citizenship revoked. Maybe, having run the different scenarios they have determined revoking her citizenship for now is the least bad option for national interests. Bit like when the British government seems to have decided invading Iraq without UN Security Council backing and against the wishes of many of the British public was the least bad option.

[Harrowby Hall]

Each morning this week there have been readings on BBC Radio 4 from Azadeh Moaveni's account of the experiences of the young women who decided to join ISIS a few years ago - Guest House for Young Widows.

These are available on BBCSounds for another four weeks.

It examines their motivations and influences on their decisions to go to Syria. They were "assigned" husbands and when widowed obliged to take the ISIS soldier available. As an account it seemed to me to be both sympathetic and critical of its subjects. I found it fascinating, instructive, horrific and moving.

[Robbie]

Good article by the journalist who interviewed Begum.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c329cc22-3527-11e9-b41a-ec1745518ba6

Very good. I'd like to seeher come back home & be helped, she was so young when she went out there. With no publicity, quietly. She made a mistake and has suffered for it.