Shamima Begum

[Udayana]

We can't take the risk, imo. Besides which, the UK has much more important things to be concerned about at present like the Coronavirus.

Of-course! We have to practice washing our hands!

[Roses]

Of-course! We have to practice washing our hands!

Definitely, where that woman is concerned.

[ippy]

I think any 15yr old could have succumbed to ISIS propaganda in a similar way. The problem is that the apparently "civilised" people couldn't have cared or done less. 

I expect, given the chance, they would be happy to send all our criminals to Bangladesh to be hanged.

Similar to how, in other times, they were exported to America, Australia and Africa to destroy  civilize the native people there?

How high a horse would you be sitting on if this woman came back here and somehow because of her indoctrinational background she engineered some form of injury or even the death of a close member of your family, or anybody else?

I'm here in the 21st century commenting on a 21st century problem, what has capital punishment or transportation have to do with the 21st century UK as opposed to those shining examples of humanity that film people having their heads cut off and burning men alive trapped inside an iron cage?

Regards, ippy. 

[Roses]

How high a horse would you be sitting on if this woman came back here and somehow because of her indoctrinational background she engineered some form of injury or even the death of a close member of your family, or anybody else?

I'm here in the 21st century commenting on a 21st century problem, what has capital punishment or transportation have to do with the 21st century UK as opposed to those shining examples of humanity that film people having their heads cut off and burning men alive trapped inside an iron cage?

Regards, ippy.

I agree with you. Begum was 15, not 5 when she chose leave the UK and join that terrorist organisation, like it or not she has to accept the consequences.

[Steve H]

Er .. how do you know she is unlikely to be deradicalised? And, if she is, why would you allow her to commit terrorism?

LR knows everything - surely you realise that?

[wigginhall]

I thought another factor is that her treatment is a brilliant recruiting sergeant for IS.    Of course, I don't know this for sure, but if I was a jihadi intelligence officer, she would figure in propaganda against the West.

[Stranger]

How high a horse would you be sitting on if this woman came back here and somehow because of her indoctrinational background she engineered some form of injury or even the death of a close member of your family, or anybody else?

And if we just abandon her and she causes deaths elsewhere (possibly in part because of our doing so), well, who cares, they're just foreigners after all, eh?

She was a UK citizen and we should have taken responsibility.

[Udayana]

How high a horse would you be sitting on if this woman came back here and somehow because of her indoctrinational background she engineered some form of injury or even the death of a close member of your family, or anybody else?

I'm here in the 21st century commenting on a 21st century problem, what has capital punishment or transportation have to do with the 21st century UK as opposed to those shining examples of humanity that film people having their heads cut off and burning men alive trapped inside an iron cage?

Regards, ippy.

It would be awful if she helped with any further terrorist actions - of-course. But she is more likely to do so  free in the Middle-East than here. Another possibility is that she is sent to Bangladesh where she would be hanged. 

Bringing family members into the argument just emotionalizes the issue and does nothing to get to a rational conclusion. No matter who, if anyone, is killed, there will be relatives who would be equally affected. 

[Robbie]

I agree with you. Begum was 15, not 5 when she chose leave the UK and join that terrorist organisation, like it or not she has to accept the consequences.

Were you fully formed intellectually at 15 with ideology firmly fixed? Actually, don't answer that, I think I know the answer and you probably were. Most of us were not completely.

It's not surprising that you and Ippy are on the same page with this issue but there are probably other posters who either agree with you or are unsure but not sufficiently invested to want to discuss it.

Shamima Begum was not surprised about having her citizenship evoked a year ago and said her world fell apart at that. It's something I find difficult to come to terms with when there are so many who have done worse but remain British. However it is what it is at the moment.

I'm surprised Amnesty aren't doing more to support her. All I can find is this from a year ago:-
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-revoking-shamima-begums-british-citizenship-legally-and-morally-questionable

[Roses]

Were you fully formed intellectually at 15 with ideology firmly fixed? Actually, don't answer that, I think I know the answer and you probably were. Most of us were not completely.

It's not surprising that you and Ippy are on the same page with this issue but there are probably other posters who either agree with you or are unsure but not sufficiently invested to want to discuss it.

Shamima Begum was not surprised about having her citizenship evoked a year ago and said her world fell apart at that. It's something I find difficult to come to terms with when there are so many who have done worse but remain British. However it is what it is at the moment.

I'm surprised Amnesty aren't doing more to support her. All I can find is this from a year ago:-
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-revoking-shamima-begums-british-citizenship-legally-and-morally-questionable

At the age of 15 I was expected to be responsible for my actions, and rightly so, imo.

[ippy]

Were you fully formed intellectually at 15 with ideology firmly fixed? Actually, don't answer that, I think I know the answer and you probably were. Most of us were not completely.

It's not surprising that you and Ippy are on the same page with this issue but there are probably other posters who either agree with you or are unsure but not sufficiently invested to want to discuss it.

Shamima Begum was not surprised about having her citizenship evoked a year ago and said her world fell apart at that. It's something I find difficult to come to terms with when there are so many who have done worse but remain British. However it is what it is at the moment.

I'm surprised Amnesty aren't doing more to support her. All I can find is this from a year ago:-
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-revoking-shamima-begums-british-citizenship-legally-and-morally-questionable

It's a well known fact that children below approximately the age of seven years they're the most likely candidates for successful indoctrination, most C of E schools are for children below seven years, then look at the rather obvious examples we see here on the forum, no need to name them.

We need people that are able to clutch the nettle and look after their own first.

I can't see why amnesty shouldn't be looking after anyone they like outside of our country, that's up to them and hopefully they'll not be kidnapped and executed in some horrific way or another during the process.

If the authorities do have a brainstorm and decide to bring this woman here to the UK I hope they keep her a lot nearer to where you live Robbie than anywhere near to my place.

I'm sorry Robbie because I do see you as a genuinely decent person but you seem to me to be saying the equivalent of, 'we must be giving that ten times serial axe murder a chance to reform there's an empty protection and security support in the community house next door to me I'll keep an eye on him the poor devil', my young family of small children and all the rest of us'll be OK'. 

Regards, ippy.

[Udayana]

At the age of 15 I was expected to be responsible for my actions, and rightly so, imo.

Well, what do you mean by that exactly? How does it relate to the Shamima Begum case?

[Robbie]

At the age of 15 I was expected to be responsible for my actions, and rightly so, imo.

That wasn't what I asked but I do understand what you are saying, it was the same for most of us and for our children, we were expected to be responsible up to a certain point at different ages.  For example, at 15 I was more responsible than my 12 year old sister.  Parents and school teachers would give us more responsibilities.

However the responsibilities came with guidance, we were not expected to think like 25 year olds.

I never got into any trouble and was considered to be fairly sensible and mature but I know my thinking - my passions - had different emphases to when I became an adult.  Not surprising, I was at school and hadn't yet even done my 'o' levels.  My experience of life and my knowledge, which I considered to be pretty good at the time, was quite different to later on because I still had a lot to learn.

That's why we have juvenile courts and young offenders institutions, the law recognises youth.  It wouldn't surprise me to know that your ideas were fully formed, or nearly, at 15 though.  I'm just saying it's not the same for most people.

[Udayana]

It's a well known fact that children below approximately the age of seven years they're the most likely candidates for successful indoctrination, most C of E schools are for children below seven years, then look at the rather obvious examples we see here on the forum, no need to name them.

Can't see how that is relevant unless you are saying that all Muslims are indoctrinated into terrorism or supporting it?

We need people that are able to clutch the nettle and look after their own first.

I can't see why amnesty shouldn't be looking after anyone they like outside of our country, that's up to them and hopefully they'll not be kidnapped and executed in some horrific way or another during the process.

If the authorities do have a brainstorm and decide to bring this woman here to the UK I hope they keep her a lot nearer to where you live Robbie than anywhere near to my place.

It will be decided by the courts. They have already decided that it was legal to remove her citizenship, they will go on to consider whether she should be barred from re-entry on security grounds.

I'm sorry Robbie because I do see you as a genuinely decent person but you seem to me to be saying the equivalent of, 'we must be giving that ten times serial axe murder a chance to reform there's an empty protection and security support in the community house next door to me I'll keep an eye on him the poor devil', my young family of small children and all the rest of us'll be OK'. 

Regards, ippy.

She is not a one time murderer let alone ten times. The murderer would of course be kept in prison as long as he was dangerous - barring govt. cutbacks or incompetence. At one time he/she would have been executed, but we found too many people were being executed when they were not, or may not, have been responsible for the crimes they were convicted of.

[Robbie]

ippy:- "but you seem to me to be saying the equivalent of, 'we must be giving that ten times serial axe murder a chance to reform there's an empty protection and security support in the community house next door to me I'll keep an eye on him the poor devil', my young family of small children and all the rest of us'll be OK'. "
..........

Oh do I really. What you seem to be saying is that there is a fair comparison between Shamima Begum and a ten times serial axe murder (er).

"I can't see why amnesty shouldn't be looking after anyone they like outside of our country, that's up to them and hopefully they'll not be kidnapped and executed in some horrific way or another during the process."

Amnesty exists for anybody of any race or culture in any country. They have helped people from here and would help us and our children if necessary. At the moment they are trying to gain freedom for a British woman, a mother- Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, maybe you object to that too. I'm grateful there are neutral agencies prepared to go anywhere to fight injustice and give aid where needed (the Red Cross is an example of the latter). We don't need them right now with our stable comfortable lives but cannot be oblivious to the needs of others less fortunate. We're more than citizens of the UK, we're part of the world.

Reading what you've posted I wonder why I've bothered to even read your posts never mind respond to them. I won't from now on.

[Roses]

That wasn't what I asked but I do understand what you are saying, it was the same for most of us and for our children, we were expected to be responsible up to a certain point at different ages.  For example, at 15 I was more responsible than my 12 year old sister.  Parents and school teachers would give us more responsibilities.

However the responsibilities came with guidance, we were not expected to think like 25 year olds.

I never got into any trouble and was considered to be fairly sensible and mature but I know my thinking - my passions - had different emphases to when I became an adult.  Not surprising, I was at school and hadn't yet even done my 'o' levels.  My experience of life and my knowledge, which I considered to be pretty good at the time, was quite different to later on because I still had a lot to learn.

That's why we have juvenile courts and young offenders institutions, the law recognises youth.  It wouldn't surprise me to know that your ideas were fully formed, or nearly, at 15 though.  I'm just saying it's not the same for most people.

In the UK the age of criminal responsibility is 10. Begum should have known better at the age of 15, I have no sympathy whatsoever for her. Anyway we are never going to agree on this topic so I will leave it there.

[Harrowby Hall]

... And you take the easy way out. Lock yourself in a little world of simple absolutes.

By all means do so.  But not until you have gone to BBC Sounds and listened to all five parts of Guest House for Young Widows.

You tell us - from time to time - about your experiences with fundamental christianity. Just imagine yourself as a twelve year old, and a member of an identifiable minority ethnic group and an identifiable minority religious group, living in an environment in which a vocal section of the population, which did not share your ethnic and religious identity, continually derided and attacked these important elements of your life. And then someone comes along with messages which appear to give value to these aspects of your personal life and tell you how you can act on these values ...

[Udayana]

In the UK the age of criminal responsibility is 10. Begum should have known better at the age of 15, I have no sympathy whatsoever for her. Anyway we are never going to agree on this topic so I will leave it there.

The amount of empathy and therefore sympathy one feels for anyone depends on one owns nature and experience. I myself have little sympathy with Begum.

I'm sure that most people, including the woman herself, would agree that she should have known better and that her behaviour and actions were stupid and wrong. And that she is responsible and accountable for them.

The issue is on how to deal with her fairly and to achieve the best longer term outcome.
 

[Sebastian Toe]

In the UK the age of criminal responsibility is 10.

Ah,  the "Little Englander" force is strong here!
 

[ippy]

ippy:- "but you seem to me to be saying the equivalent of, 'we must be giving that ten times serial axe murder a chance to reform there's an empty protection and security support in the community house next door to me I'll keep an eye on him the poor devil', my young family of small children and all the rest of us'll be OK'. "
..........

Oh do I really. What you seem to be saying is that there is a fair comparison between Shamima Begum and a ten times serial axe murder (er).

"I can't see why amnesty shouldn't be looking after anyone they like outside of our country, that's up to them and hopefully they'll not be kidnapped and executed in some horrific way or another during the process."

Amnesty exists for anybody of any race or culture in any country. They have helped people from here and would help us and our children if necessary. At the moment they are trying to gain freedom for a British woman, a mother- Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, maybe you object to that too. I'm grateful there are neutral agencies prepared to go anywhere to fight injustice and give aid where needed (the Red Cross is an example of the latter). We don't need them right now with our stable comfortable lives but cannot be oblivious to the needs of others less fortunate. We're more than citizens of the UK, we're part of the world.

Reading what you've posted I wonder why I've bothered to even read your posts never mind respond to them. I won't from now on.

"I can't see why amnesty shouldn't be looking after anyone they like outside of our country, that's up to them and hopefully they'll not be kidnapped and executed in some horrific way or another during the process."

In the UK if you're among a group performing criminal acts even if you're just with the group and not the one actually performing the criminal act just by taking a part, being there with them you'll find the law will consider you to a greater or lesser extent just as guilty as the rest of that group act dependent on the evidence presented. (Nothing to do with axe murderers in general, I was using a reference to an axe murderer as an analogy).

We don't agree about having her back here in the UK, that's fair enough, we don't agree, so why, apparently, get so upset when all it is, we don't agree?

Regards, ippy.

 

[Nearly Sane]

 Court of Appeal rules she needs to be let into UK to fight govt decision.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53427197

[Roses]

I would be more sympathetic to her cause if she had any regrets for joining that terrorist mob.

[Nearly Sane]

I would be more sympathetic to her cause if she had any regrets for joining that terrorist mob.

Which is irrelevant to the idea of legal due process.

[jeremyp]

I would be more sympathetic to her cause if she had any regrets for joining that terrorist mob.

She wants to come back. Sounds like she does have regrets.

Personally, I think it was a travesty that Britain revoked her citizenship rather than have to deal with the problem (if there still is one). It's also a contravention of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to deny her citizenship.

[Roses]

She wants to come back. Sounds like she does have regrets.

Personally, I think it was a travesty that Britain revoked her citizenship rather than have to deal with the problem (if there still is one). It's also a contravention of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to deny her citizenship.

Begum has regrets that she is stuck in a camp and not permitted to come back to the UK, there doesn't seem any sign of her regretting leaving in the first place and joining ISIS. However, it doesn't look as if she will permitted to come back the the UK any time soon, if ever.