Andre Previn dead

[ProfessorDavey]

I just want to say something else about Andre Previn if I can penetrate this seemingly unending stuff about Morecambe and Wise.

The London Symphony Orchestra is now considered to be one of the four or five best orchestras in the world. It wasn't when he was appointed its chief conductor. In fact, it was an almost all-male, macho, laddish ensemble renowned (in the pages of Private Eye at least) for taking a delight in destroying conductors it didn't like. Principals would also absent themselves for more remunerative engagements and send along deputies to replace them. It always behaved itself on the public platform but at rehearsals ...  A significant reason for the LSO being able to get away with such behaviour was that it was self-governing.

During his eleven years in that post Previn - helped by enlightened management - was able to start the process whereby the orchestra began to review the way it behaved. Appointing women players helped (although it was several years before the proportion of women approached that of - say - the BBC Symphony Orchestra). I suspect that he helped the orchestra to start taking itself seriously.

Following his formal resignation from the post, Previn continued to appear regularly with the LSO - and for the last twenty years or so has held honorary positions as Conductor Laureate and Conductor Emeritus - meaning that his association with the LSO was longer than with any other orchestra.

Another aspect of the LSO's life that Previn probably influenced was its association with American music and musicians. Michael Tilson Thomas became chief conductor and a very close relationship developed with Leonard Bernstein. Another composer/conductor who worked frequently with the orchestra was John Williams - this relationship has probably resulted in the LSO being heard by more people than any other orchestra in history!

Absolutely correct - Previn turned the LSO from just another of many orchestras (even just those based in London) to one of the most highly regarded in the world.

Interesting you mention self governing - and one of the aspects of that was that it was the orchestra directly, rather than separate administrative structures that determined that Previn should be appointed.

And you are correct that he used a whole range of approaches to ensure that the LSO was both accessible, and accessed (not the same thing) by the widest possible audience, including those regular links with John Williams which was no doubt helped by Previn's background in film music and Hollywood. And that included the LSO recording the orchestral soundtracks for the first Star Wars films. HH do you know whether Previn was conducting the LSO for those sessions - I know he was instrumental in setting up the link between the orchestra and John Williams.

[Harrowby Hall]

Thank you, PD.

Previn did not conduct the Star Wars soundtrack, John Williams did.

John Williams has also developed a very strong relationship with the LSO.  He is now in mid-80s and doesn't feel able to travel much. I believe that a recent LSO concert to celebrate the association with John Williams did involve a video link enabling him to be "present". (Or I may have misunderstood a report of the concert).

Incidentally, I recall that in one of his early Andre Previn's Music Night shows, Previn included music by John Williams.

[ProfessorDavey]

That Previn did a tour of America, came to London to rehearse and do the M&W show, flew back to America to visit his sick mother ...

So you accept my version of events was correct (or rather the actual producer of the show's version of events, consistent with Previn's words himself) - now I know this is the height of pedantry, but if you are in effect accusing another poster of lying then I think you need to get your facts right first.

... and still came back in time to do the show with little rehearsal when he could have cancelled just shows what a big fan he must have been of M&W.

Perhaps - but rather more is shows that he was the consummate professional who had a contractual obligation to appear on the show and was going to make sure he didn't break that contractual obligation.

He might have loved M&W - who knows - but there is no evidence that he loved the sketch. He freely admitted that he'd never even seen the finished version until 1996, some 25 years after it was made. And that was only because he was kind of 'ambushed' - he was at a reception for receiving his honorary knighthood with the US ambassador who, unbeknown to Previn, insisted on a viewing. He was also so enamoured by the sketch that he never even mentioned it to his most recent wife, she only found out when she asked him why a taxi driver was calling him Mr Preview.

[ProfessorDavey]

Thank you, PD.

Previn did not conduct the Star Wars soundtrack, John Williams did.

John Williams has also developed a very strong relationship with the LSO.  He is now in mid-80s and doesn't feel able to travel much. I believe that a recent LSO concert to celebrate the association with John Williams did involve a video link enabling him to be "present". (Or I may have misunderstood a report of the concert).

Incidentally, I recall that in one of his early Andre Previn's Music Night shows, Previn included music by John Williams.

I didn't know that - but Andre Previn's Music Night was pretty groundbreaking too - bringing serious classical music to the masses, but in a manner that was very engaging and not stuffy.

He also included the other John Williams - who was himself a bit of a classical crossover superstar at the time.

[ProfessorDavey]

If you are reading through the Morecambe and Wise website for your information, why did you pretend that Previn did the show because of contractual obligations to the BBC? And why not just link to the website? It's almost like you're trying to hide the information that proves you wrong about Previn's willing involvement with M&W. Just before the section you just quoted it says:

The most famous guest was probably Andre Previn, and the way in which John got him was a mix of good luck, coincidence and perseverance.

“I’d seen him on a BBC2 programme talking to camera, and I knew he had a good experience with all kinds of entertainment.” John begins, “Eric liked the idea of using for the Grieg sketch but said I would never get him.”

“I called up the producer of the show I had seen him in and was told by his secretary that he was three floors below me at the BBC, editing a show. I went straight down. He informed me he was meeting Andre for lunch the next day and would mention the idea.”

“The following day I got a call and eventually ended up speaking to the man himself. He was keen on the idea and so it was up to his agent and myself to put the plan together that fitted us both.”

Quite the contrary - this rather confirms my assertion, that the appearance on M&W and his existing contract for Music Night were linked. My words were:

'I have no doubt it was mutually beneficial to all involved, but remember Previn and the LSO were under contract with the BBC for Andre Previn's Music Night, as of course were M&W. The BBC will have put them together as part of their contractual arrangements.'

That is exactly what happened - the whole deal was brokered by the Music Night producer - the M&W producer went to him. If there was no contractual link to the BBC that would have been completely inappropriate - he'd have worked via Previn's agent.

It is absolutely standard that BBC contracts (and other media organisations) have a contractual requirement to engage in a range of promotional activities. These will include print-type promotional material, but also as appropriate appearances on other shows. Of course there is nothing the BBC likes better than to have one of their stars promote their show on another high profile BBC platform (have you ever watched Graham Norton) - this has been going on for years and arguably the balance was tipped more in favour of the BBC rather than the artists back in the 60s and 70s.

Now the contract rarely specifies exactly what has to be done - that is to be determined by the show's producers. They also have a veto on appearances they consider to be inappropriate and detrimental to the show's promotion. So Ammonds piece is entirely consistent with that approach. He'd like Previn, Previn is contracted with the BBC to do Music Night and will need to fulfil promotional requirements - so Ammonds goes directly to the Music Night producer rather than Previn's agent. The Music Night producer brokers the deal and gains the agreement of Previn (before Previn's agent is even involved).

None of that means that Previn didn't want to do it - it was mutually agreeable to all involved, but without doubt the BBC, via their respective producers, put them together due to their existing contractual arrangements.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

So you accept my version of events was correct (or rather the actual producer of the show's version of events, consistent with Previn's words himself) - now I know this is the height of pedantry, but if you are in effect accusing another poster of lying then I think you need to get your facts right first.

If you are going to accuse another poster of accusing you of lying best quote where I accused you of lying. What I said was that if you are going to add to the story you need to link to evidence. Asking someone for evidence of an assertion about someone else isn't accusing them of lying - it's teaching them how a forum works - why should anyone believe your assertions about Previn unless you provide evidence to back them up? You're a nobody like the rest of us on a fairly small forum - just another poster.

And I don't accept your version is correct - I wouldn't know what is correct and neither do you. But I accept that Ammond's recollection according to the Morecambe and Wise website is that Previn's mother was sick and that Previn was keen enough to do the show that he flew back in time to record it, when he could have decided it was too stressful and not taken part. Previn's own words in the iPlayer link doesn't mention his mother, so without more information I have no idea if Previn agrees with Ammond's version of events, or if he mentioned a sick mother and it was edited out or if he never mentioned it.
 

Perhaps - but rather more is shows that he was the consummate professional who had a contractual obligation to appear on the show and was going to make sure he didn't break that contractual obligation.

An ill mother and no rehearsal time would have been a perfectly acceptable reason for a star like him to miss doing a comedy sketch so no, it seems rather more that he was there because he wanted to do the show, even though he could have cancelled.

He might have loved M&W - who knows

You know because Previn said he was a big fan of their show and would be on their show "like a shot"

but there is no evidence that he loved the sketch.

If he was unhappy with it, he would have said something in the interviews that he did where the sketch was mentioned. And he would not have agreed to return to poke fun at himself again in another M&W show, by appearing as a bus conductor. Face it - he had a sense of humour, and liked to display that side of himself to the public. Which is as good a reason as any to keep you talking about Previn's appearances on M&W, because it's a good way to celebrate the humourous side of the talented Mr. Previn. Thanks for quoting from the M&W website by the way. Compared to the one line by NS concerning Eric Morecambe at the start of the thread, we've managed to turn the majority of this thread to be about Morecambe & Wise. You must be pleased.   

He freely admitted that he'd never even seen the finished version until 1996, some 25 years after it was made. And that was only because he was kind of 'ambushed' - he was at a reception for receiving his honorary knighthood with the US ambassador who, unbeknown to Previn, insisted on a viewing. He was also so enamoured by the sketch that he never even mentioned it to his most recent wife, she only found out when she asked him why a taxi driver was calling him Mr Preview.

You know the drill - evidence please. By the way, I am sure there were lots of non-musical things from the 1970s he didn't get time to mention to his fifth wife, a renowned violinist who was invited by the conductor Herbert von Karajan to play with the Berlin Philharmonic at the age of 13, and to whom he was married for all of 4 years before they divorced in 2006, almost 30 years after the final episode date of the M&W show, and who was German and had probably never heard of Morecambe & Wise. While they were married they probably spent a lot of time talking about, rehearsing and performing music. I've been married for 25 years and there are still things from the 1970s that are important to me that I haven't gotten around to talking about to my husband because I only recall them when they seem relevant to something happening today. But that's fine - you keep this thread on Andre Previn and Morecambe and Wise going, by coming up with more of your theories on Andre's feelings about the comedy sketches he did with them. It was a very funny collaboration and popular with British fans of Previn so certainly worth mentioning a few more times on a British forum.

"I told Previn that my favourite line of the sketch – which sent up Eric’s efforts to play the Grieg Piano Concerto – was “for another fiver we could have had Ted Heath”. Previn’s face creased with mirth, and I was pleased to see that the sketch meant as much to him as everybody else."
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/mar/01/andre-previn-interview-philip-clark-morecombe-and-wise

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Quite the contrary - this rather confirms my assertion, that the appearance on M&W and his existing contract for Music Night were linked. My words were:

'I have no doubt it was mutually beneficial to all involved, but remember Previn and the LSO were under contract with the BBC for Andre Previn's Music Night, as of course were M&W. The BBC will have put them together as part of their contractual arrangements.'

That is exactly what happened - the whole deal was brokered by the Music Night producer - the M&W producer went to him. If there was no contractual link to the BBC that would have been completely inappropriate - he'd have worked via Previn's agent.

It is absolutely standard that BBC contracts (and other media organisations) have a contractual requirement to engage in a range of promotional activities. These will include print-type promotional material, but also as appropriate appearances on other shows. Of course there is nothing the BBC likes better than to have one of their stars promote their show on another high profile BBC platform (have you ever watched Graham Norton) - this has been going on for years and arguably the balance was tipped more in favour of the BBC rather than the artists back in the 60s and 70s.

Now the contract rarely specifies exactly what has to be done - that is to be determined by the show's producers. They also have a veto on appearances they consider to be inappropriate and detrimental to the show's promotion. So Ammonds piece is entirely consistent with that approach. He'd like Previn, Previn is contracted with the BBC to do Music Night and will need to fulfil promotional requirements - so Ammonds goes directly to the Music Night producer rather than Previn's agent. The Music Night producer brokers the deal and gains the agreement of Previn (before Previn's agent is even involved).

None of that means that Previn didn't want to do it - it was mutually agreeable to all involved, but without doubt the BBC, via their respective producers, put them together due to their existing contractual arrangements.

The important point in all that waffle is that Previn, when asked if he would ever do something as outrageous as the M&W show replied, "like a shot" according to his words, because he was a big fan of their show. So I'm quite happy for you and me to keep celebrating the Morcambe and Wise / Andre Previn comedy sketch by talking about it some more, especially given the OP of this thread. 

[ProfessorDavey]

If you are going to accuse another poster of accusing you of lying best quote where I accused you of lying.

Please don't misquote me Gabriella. What I said was:

'... if you are in effect accusing another poster of lying then I think you need to get your facts right first ...'

I think your accusation:
'Are you saying you have proof that Previn was mistaken in his recollection of his involvement in the M&W comedy sketch?'

is in effect accusing me of lying.

Regardless, as it turns out I provided the proof and the actual facts aren't inconsistent with what Previn said.

[ProfessorDavey]

An ill mother and no rehearsal time would have been a perfectly acceptable reason for a star like him to miss doing a comedy sketch so no, it seems rather more that he was there because he wanted to do the show, even though he could have cancelled.

That's pure speculation - what we do know is that he was contracted to appear on the show and despite serious 'curve-balls' in the last few days he did appear on the show. Whether that's because he wanted to do it at that point or because as the consumate professional he felt he should fulfil his obligations neither you nor I know.

[ProfessorDavey]

You know the drill - evidence please.

His Desert Island Discs interview and:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2005/jun/06/classicalmusicandopera2
Amongst others telling the same story

[ProfessorDavey]

The important point in all that waffle is that Previn, when asked if he would ever do something as outrageous as the M&W show replied, "like a shot" according to his words ...

Have you asked yourself who it was that actually asked Previn and gained his agreement to appear on the show. You know the 'shadowy' figure that Ammonds went to take to in the editing suite and who said he was having lunch with Previn the following day. The person who actually asked Previn, got his agreement and brokered the deal.

Well actually we know exactly who he was.

He wasn't just the producer of Music Night (where he was effectively the custodian of Previn's BBC contract) he was also the Head of music programmes for whole of BBC television, responsible for everything from Music Night to the Proms toTop of the Pops.

He was significantly senior to Ammonds in the BBC hierarchy and would have had the authority and seniority to take decisions on appropriate promotional activities for artists contacted to produce music programmes. And that would have included the authority to veto a promotional appearance he considered not to be consistent with the image of Music Night (clearly he didn't).

He was also a hugely influential figure in classical music recording and a person who Previn personally respected hugely and had worked with over many years. He was also the person who brought Previn and the LSO to the BBC.

His name was John Culshaw - perhaps you've never heard of him, Gabriella. But I suspect some of the classical music aficionados on here, e.g. HH will have done, or will certainly know his work, as he was responsible for much of the legendary Decca classical music recordings of the late 50s and early 60s, including works conducted by Solti, Karajan, Bernstein, Britton etc. His recording of the Ring cycle was actually voted the greatest recording ever made ever by readers of Gramophone magazine.

He is perhaps the 'unsung hero' of this tale

[jeremyp]

Except they didn't - the M&W sketch barely gets a mention in the obits from the Guardian, Independent and Telegraph and none led on it.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/feb/28/andre-previn-obituary
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/andre-previn-obituary-death-oscar-composer-conductor-dead-a8803221.html
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/obituaries/2019/02/28/andre-previn-prodigiously-talented-conductor-pianist-composer/

Your links are to the obituaries of those papers. What did their news stories say?

 

[jeremyp]

Who gives a toss about how Morcambe and Wise managed to book Previn?

Yes Previn was a great conductor and did many great things in the world of classical music, but his participation in the Morcambe and Wise sketch really does stand out. There are many great conductors of Previn’s calibre but only he allowed a comedian to take the Mickey in one of the all time great comedy sketches.

[Nearly Sane]

Who gives a toss about how Morcambe and Wise managed to book Previn?

Yes Previn was a great conductor and did many great things in the world of classical music, but his participation in the Morcambe and Wise sketch really does stand out. There are many great conductors of Previn’s calibre but only he allowed a comedian to take the Mickey in one of the all time great comedy sketches.

As part of an interest in expanding the interest in classical music. Something that this thread would seem to have become an antithesis to.


I cannot think that anything similar would happen today.

[ProfessorDavey]

Yes Previn was a great conductor and did many great things in the world of classical music, but his participation in the Morcambe and Wise sketch really does stand out.

Matter of opinion, but I cannot agree with you.

The sketch was a high point of M&W's career - it was not a high point of Previn's career.

Just my opinion.

[ProfessorDavey]

I cannot think that anything similar would happen today.

Not so sure about that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC65NkjhkPA

[Nearly Sane]

Not so sure about that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC65NkjhkPA

Seems in no way related. Nothing about music

[ProfessorDavey]

Seems in no way related. Nothing about music

Correct - nothing to do with music.

I thought you meant a 'serious' professional allowing themselves to be sent up on a comedy sketch. Interesting parallels as both Previn and Hawking were passionate about bringing their 'serious' subject (classical music, physics) the masses and weren't precious about the approaches they adopted.

By the way the M&W sketch is far funnier (in my opinion) than the Little Britain/Hawking one.

[Nearly Sane]

Correct - nothing to do with music.

I thought you meant a 'serious' professional allowing themselves to be sent up on a comedy sketch. Interesting parallels as both Previn and Hawking were passionate about bringing their 'serious' subject (classical music, physics) the masses and weren't precious about the approaches they adopted.

By the way the M&W sketch is far funnier (in my opinion) than the Little Britain/Hawking one.

let's go on a point of agreement. The M&W sketch is funnier.

My question was about someone in music like Previn doing such a sketch.

[ProfessorDavey]

My question was about someone in music like Previn doing such a sketch.

I think there have been plenty involving pop/rock musicians, including carpool karaoke-type stuff with James Cordon, e.g.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvuENG3O9TM

Not sure about classical musicians though but that's perhaps because there a few currently with the rock star-like profile of Previn (or DuPre or Barenboim) in the late 60s.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

That's pure speculation - what we do know is that he was contracted to appear on the show and despite serious 'curve-balls' in the last few days he did appear on the show. Whether that's because he wanted to do it at that point or because as the consumate professional he felt he should fulfil his obligations neither you nor I know.

Your posts on here about Previn doing the show because of his contractual obligations to the BBC regarding promotion and publicity, and Previn's reasons for not telling his wife 30 years later about his appearance on M&W have been pure speculation. The far simpler explanation is the one he gave and which made him seem like a good sport with the ability to laugh at himself. He was a fan of the M&W show and therefore jumped at the chance to appear. He probably thought it would be funny, outrageous, good publicity and he could see how it might broaden his appeal to a wider audience.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Please don't misquote me Gabriella. What I said was:

'... if you are in effect accusing another poster of lying then I think you need to get your facts right first ...'

I think your accusation:
'Are you saying you have proof that Previn was mistaken in his recollection of his involvement in the M&W comedy sketch?'

is in effect accusing me of lying.

Regardless, as it turns out I provided the proof and the actual facts aren't inconsistent with what Previn said.

It was a question asking if you had any proof that Previn was mistaken in his recollection. People make mistakes when they recollect events - the issues of inaccurate eye witness testimony and reconstructed memories that can be altered by suggestion or leading questions has been discussed a few times on this forum. How have you managed to interpret a question asking for proof as an accusation that you were posting information that you knew to be false?

And yes, you provided an account from the producer of M&W about Previn flying to the US because his mother was sick, which wasn't in the video of the interview with Previn recounting his appearance on M&W. Whether he was on tour or visiting his sick mother in the US is incidental to the point he made in his interview that he was keen to take part in the show and rehearsed his part for the M&W sketch in the car from the airport to the studio.

[Nearly Sane]

I think there have been plenty involving pop/rock musicians, including carpool karaoke-type stuff with James Cordon, e.g.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvuENG3O9TM

Not sure about classical musicians though but that's perhaps because there a few currently with the rock star-like profile of Previn (or DuPre or Barenboim) in the late 60s.

I suppose the closest we have had in recent times is Lesley Garrett on SCD but not sure that quite translates. I don't see Du Pre or Barenboim as being likely to appear in the same way though I think Menuhin a possible. I have linked on the Music thread to Perlman playing with Larry Adler on Parkinson but mt thought is that we have backed away from classical music as accessible and rebuilt the wall of snobbishness.

[ProfessorDavey]

I suppose the closest we have had in recent times is Lesley Garrett on SCD but not sure that quite translates. I don't see Du Pre or Barenboim as being likely to appear in the same way though I think Menuhin a possible. I have linked on the Music thread to Perlman playing with Larry Adler on Parkinson but mt thought is that we have backed away from classical music as accessible and rebuilt the wall of snobbishness.

Simon Rattle and the LSO with Rowan Atkinson at the 2012 Olympics opening ceremony?

[Nearly Sane]

Simon Rattle and the LSO with Rowan Atkinson at the 2012 Olympics opening ceremony?

And yet Rattle and the orchestra were not noticeable to most people?  We don't do classical music for people well in this country. Which i think was one of Previn's interests.