Author Topic: Britain's next leader  (Read 1844 times)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Britain's next leader
« Reply #100 on: June 14, 2019, 04:27:37 PM »
But if the choice would have been the same, your point is specious.
But we can never know if that would have been the case, for the reasons I mentioned previously.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Britain's next leader
« Reply #101 on: June 14, 2019, 04:31:45 PM »
But we can never know if that would have been the case, for the reasons I mentioned previously.
You mean your massive 'what if'? What are the odds on a large majority for one candidate being affected by that.

And that's without the myth that in a GE the public, other than those in the various leader's constituencies, are electing a PM
 

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Britain's next leader
« Reply #102 on: June 14, 2019, 05:28:55 PM »
You mean your massive 'what if'? What are the odds on a large majority for one candidate being affected by that.
How MPs vote when selecting 2 people to go to a final members ballot is likely to be different to how they would vote if they were voting for the leader themselves. Boris isn't popular in the parliamentary party, but MPs recognise that he is popular enough to end up at least second and therefore likely to win through under the members ballot - hence they are more likely to be seen to support (remember there are cabinet places on offer). Were it down to MPs alone, I would speculate that Hunt would be more popular than Boris.

And that's without the myth that in a GE the public, other than those in the various leader's constituencies, are electing a PM
True, in theory, but not really in practice as the electorate wherever they are will be swayed by the leaders of the various parties in terms of choice of vote, regardless of which constituency they are in. And it is pretty clear that if party x gets a majority then the leader of party x will be PM, hence de facto a vote for party x is a vote for that person to be PM.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 05:37:32 PM by ProfessorDavey »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Britain's next leader
« Reply #103 on: June 14, 2019, 05:37:43 PM »
Isn't Johnson's biggest assert Corbyn? To most if not all tory MPs the idea of Corbyn as PM is kryptonite, and rightly or wrongly Johnson is seen as the only proven vote winner come a GE so no matter they think of him they'll hold their noses and vote Boris. If it's a choice between a lying, morally bankrupt incompetent and an unreformed marxist the lying, morally bankrupt incompetent wins.   
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Britain's next leader
« Reply #104 on: June 14, 2019, 05:45:56 PM »
Don't forget that there are a number of examples where MPs choice of leader hasn't aligned with member's choice and the members view won out. So far none of those examples are for PM as there has never been a case where a leader of the governing party has been selected by members - May, Brown, Major, Callaghan ... were all selected by the MPs of the governing party alone.

But for opposition leaders, step forward:

Corbyn
Miliband E
IDS

All preferred/elected by the members despite not being first choice of the MPs

Gordon

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Re: Britain's next leader
« Reply #105 on: June 20, 2019, 08:31:06 PM »
So the Tory party membership, who it seems are now largely infected by Brexit zealotry, are to choose between a pair of incompetent fuckwits: the favourite is the incompetent fuckwit who is a racist liar, as opposed to the other who is merely an incompetent fuckwit (albeit a good one as his handling of the NHS in England and Wales confirms), where the latter incompetent fuckwit recently tweeted this nauseating summary

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'Reflection on this race: someone who started in care & reformed the education system, someone who took on the hard left and transformed London, the son of a bus driver who became Home Secretary and in case I forgot to mention an entrepreneur...a credit to our brilliant party

We can only hope that events in the forthcoming weeks will see the end of Brexit, the Tory party in its current form, and the UK.   

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Britain's next leader
« Reply #106 on: June 21, 2019, 08:58:19 AM »
So the Tory party membership, who it seems are now largely infected by Brexit zealotry, are to choose between a pair of incompetent fuckwits: the favourite is the incompetent fuckwit who is a racist liar, as opposed to the other who is merely an incompetent fuckwit (albeit a good one as his handling of the NHS in England and Wales confirms), where the latter incompetent fuckwit recently tweeted this nauseating summary

We can only hope that events in the forthcoming weeks will see the end of Brexit, the Tory party in its current form, and the UK.   
Not sure I'd describe it in such words, but the lack of talent amongst the contenders is really worrying. I'm struggling to see anyone who looks like a leader, someone who'd command respect around the world.

jeremyp

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Re: Britain's next leader
« Reply #107 on: June 21, 2019, 10:03:01 AM »
So the Tory party membership, who it seems are now largely infected by Brexit zealotry, are to choose between a pair of incompetent fuckwits: the favourite is the incompetent fuckwit who is a racist liar, as opposed to the other who is merely an incompetent fuckwit (albeit a good one as his handling of the NHS in England and Wales confirms), where the latter incompetent fuckwit recently tweeted this nauseating summary

We can only hope that events in the forthcoming weeks will see the end of Brexit, the Tory party in its current form, and the UK.   

Why would you hope for the end of the UK? If Brexit has taught you anything, it should be that trying to secede from unions is a difficult and destructive thing to do at best.
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Gordon

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Re: Britain's next leader
« Reply #108 on: June 21, 2019, 11:20:46 AM »
Why would you hope for the end of the UK? If Brexit has taught you anything, it should be that trying to secede from unions is a difficult and destructive thing to do at best.

So is staying in a union where the largest of the 4 nations, electorally speaking, has adopted a political outlook that fundamentally differs from that of the other nations, which is especially the case as regards Scotland. So when I hear Tory politicians speak of 'bringing the country together', and yet it also seems the Tory membership value Brexit more than they value Scotland being in the UK, then it seems to me that for as long as large parts of England are in permanent thrall to the Tories (or to the new Brexit party), and since the main opposition party in Westminster is also dysfunctional, then the UK union simply doesn't reflect the political outlook of my nation.

Of course seceding from the UK would be complex but staying part of a union dominated by a party prepared to place Boris Johnson in the driving seat as the UK bus hurtles lemming-like towards the cliff is an even worse option. Brexit will eventually break just about everything and even if, hopefully, it can be avoided enough damage has already been done - and the blame lies with the Tory party who enabled this madness without any due diligence beforehand nor exhibiting any competence afterwards.         

SusanDoris

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Re: Britain's next leader
« Reply #109 on: June 21, 2019, 12:45:00 PM »
So is staying in a union where the largest of the 4 nations, electorally speaking, has adopted a political outlook that fundamentally differs from that of the other nations, which is especially the case as regards Scotland. So when I hear Tory politicians speak of 'bringing the country together', and yet it also seems the Tory membership value Brexit more than they value Scotland being in the UK, then it seems to me that for as long as large parts of England are in permanent thrall to the Tories (or to the new Brexit party), and since the main opposition party in Westminster is also dysfunctional, then the UK union simply doesn't reflect the political outlook of my nation.

Of course seceding from the UK would be complex but staying part of a union dominated by a party prepared to place Boris Johnson in the driving seat as the UK bus hurtles lemming-like towards the cliff is an even worse option. Brexit will eventually break just about everything and even if, hopefully, it can be avoided enough damage has already been done - and the blame lies with the Tory party who enabled this madness without any due diligence beforehand nor exhibiting any competence afterwards.       
You are not, however, speaking for some, maybe nearly all I don't know, the Scots who voted to remain in the union, or the Conservative members of the Scottish Parliament or those who voted for them, etc, and one could add those who live in Scotland but are not entitled to vote because they are not British subjects or something. To start dividing up peoples instead of working with them is, in my opinion, almost always a backward step.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Britain's next leader
« Reply #110 on: June 21, 2019, 12:51:08 PM »
You are not, however, speaking for some, maybe nearly all I don't know, the Scots who voted to remain in the union, or the Conservative members of the Scottish Parliament or those who voted for them, etc, and one could add those who live in Scotland but are not entitled to vote because they are not British subjects or something. To start dividing up peoples instead of working with them is, in my opinion, almost always a backward step.
Pity you support a party that has hounded disabled people to suicide.

Christine

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Re: Britain's next leader
« Reply #111 on: June 21, 2019, 01:20:22 PM »
If I were Scottish, I'm sure I'd be desperate to uncouple my country from England as well.  But then there'd be even less of a brake on the Tories' destructive policies and behaviour (not that there's much of one now, I accept).  If the nationalists get their wish, will Scotland be prepared to welcome a lot of poor and sick refugees from just down the road?   

I keep hearing people comparing Corbyn's Labour to the Tories and saying there's not much to choose - really?  Corbyn might be a poor leader who's not currently representing a large swathe of Labour supporters very well, but the idea that his social-democrat policy proposals would be equally as bad as the slash and burn, asset stripping, fundamentally dishonest capitalism we're currently being subjected to is, in my opinion, ridiculous.  He was most recently castigated for (again) wanting evidence before making pronouncements on responsibility for a bad action.  For saying more or less the same thing as the German foreign minister and the UN, Jeremy Hunt called him "pathetic".   

The MPs have voted against the only contender who showed a shred of integrity.  What a pity it's no surprise.  Whichever one of them gets it, they'll be skewered by Brexit, whether we leave on 31st October or not.  As neither Rory Stewart nor Labour will be carrying the can for the disaster, perhaps one or the other will be able to do something to retrieve our politics from the grip of the sociopaths at some point in the future.   

Gordon

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Re: Britain's next leader
« Reply #112 on: June 21, 2019, 02:48:01 PM »
You are not, however, speaking for some, maybe nearly all I don't know, the Scots who voted to remain in the union, or the Conservative members of the Scottish Parliament or those who voted for them, etc, and one could add those who live in Scotland but are not entitled to vote because they are not British subjects or something.

We were lied to in 2014 when a Tory PM, plus assorted UK-enthusiasts, told us that if we wanted to stay in the EU we definitely needed to stay in the UK - look how that turned out!

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To start dividing up peoples instead of working with them is, in my opinion, almost always a backward step.

Therefore Brexit is a backward step?

If the Tories are stupid enough to select Boris Johnson then not only are the Tories finished here in Scotland (though, tbh, they already are due to Brexit) they will have also aided the case for Indyref2: I suppose this is confirmation that some clouds do indeed have silver linings.

SusanDoris

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Re: Britain's next leader
« Reply #113 on: June 21, 2019, 03:22:11 PM »
We were lied to in 2014 when a Tory PM, plus assorted UK-enthusiasts, told us that if we wanted to stay in the EU we definitely needed to stay in the UK - look how that turned out!

Therefore Brexit is a backward step?

If the Tories are stupid enough to select Boris Johnson then not only are the Tories finished here in Scotland (though, tbh, they already are due to Brexit) they will have also aided the case for Indyref2: I suppose this is confirmation that some clouds do indeed have silver linings.
In my opinion, Brexit is a huge mistake.
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SusanDoris

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Re: Britain's next leader
« Reply #114 on: June 21, 2019, 03:26:43 PM »
In my opinion, Brexit is a huge mistake.
I shal vote for Jeremy Hunt because he is not Boris.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Britain's next leader
« Reply #115 on: June 21, 2019, 03:38:26 PM »
I shal vote for Jeremy Hunt because he is not Boris.
I'll vote for Jack the Ripper because he isn't Shipman

Gordon

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Re: Britain's next leader
« Reply #116 on: June 21, 2019, 03:48:16 PM »
I shal vote for Jeremy Hunt because he is not Boris.

He's still Jeremy Hunt though, which is surely enough of a reason not to vote for him.

Nearly Sane

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Spud

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Re: Britain's next leader
« Reply #118 on: June 21, 2019, 07:25:22 PM »
We were lied to in 2014 when a Tory PM, plus assorted UK-enthusiasts, told us that if we wanted to stay in the EU we definitely needed to stay in the UK - look how
that turned out!
I thought rather than lying they were mistaken, as they were convinced the majority of people wanted to remain.

Gordon

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Re: Britain's next leader
« Reply #119 on: June 21, 2019, 07:55:20 PM »
I thought rather than lying they were mistaken, as they were convinced the majority of people wanted to remain.

We-re talking pre-Brexit, Spud, when during the 2014 Scottish Independence referendum campaign we were told that if we wanted to remain in the EU we should vote to remain part of the UK - then they (the Tory government) enabled the Brexit referendum.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 08:02:18 PM by Gordon »

jeremyp

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Re: Britain's next leader
« Reply #120 on: June 21, 2019, 08:16:06 PM »
So is staying in a union where the largest of the 4 nations, electorally speaking, has adopted a political outlook that fundamentally differs from that of the other nations
Nations don't have opinions, people do. You are ignoring the fact that there are a lot of pro Brexit Scots and a lot of pro Union Scots.

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when I hear Tory politicians speak of 'bringing the country together', and yet it also seems the Tory membership value Brexit more than they value Scotland being in the UK
You know that "Tory membership" is only in the thousands? I agree that there is a problem with the current Tory party but you would be wrong to think that people in England are OK with what's going on there.

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then it seems to me that for as long as large parts of England are in permanent thrall to the Tories (or to the new Brexit party), and since the main opposition party in Westminster is also dysfunctional, then the UK union simply doesn't reflect the political outlook of my nation.

Guess what. If you get your independence there will still be large parts of your country in thrall to parties whose policies you don't like. It's democracy.

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Of course seceding from the UK would be complex but staying part of a union dominated by a party prepared to place Boris Johnson in the driving seat as the UK
You don't honestly think that is going to continue for very long do you? The Tories are finished as a political force. The only thing that keeps them in power is the uselessness of the current Labour leader.

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Brexit will eventually break just about everything and even if, hopefully, it can be avoided enough damage has already been done - and the blame lies with the Tory party who enabled this madness without any due diligence beforehand nor exhibiting any competence afterwards.       
I completely agree with that but what is unbroken will probably be finished off by Scottish secession.
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jeremyp

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Re: Britain's next leader
« Reply #121 on: June 21, 2019, 08:19:00 PM »
Pity you support a party that has hounded disabled people to suicide.

How did you figure that one out? I don't think I've ever seen Susan claim to support one political party or another.

ETA: OK her "I shall vote for Jeremy Hunt" comment suggests she is a member, but that doesn't mean she supports the policy on disabled people's benefits.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 08:28:07 PM by jeremyp »
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Spud

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Re: Britain's next leader
« Reply #122 on: June 21, 2019, 08:41:09 PM »
We-re talking pre-Brexit, Spud, when during the 2014 Scottish Independence referendum campaign we were told that if we wanted to remain in the EU we should vote to remain part of the UK - then they (the Tory government) enabled the Brexit referendum.
Yes I'm aware of that - presumably the reason they said it was, they weren't planning on holding the Brexit referendum at that point and had little idea how much support there would eventually be for Brexit.

Gordon

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Re: Britain's next leader
« Reply #123 on: June 21, 2019, 08:56:41 PM »
Yes I'm aware of that - presumably the reason they said it was, they weren't planning on holding the Brexit referendum at that point and had little idea how much support there would eventually be for Brexit.

Not here in Scotland though: a fact that rarely gets a mention in Toryland, since it seems that the resident Tories there tend to prefer Brexit no matter what - which is especially ironic when they then stupidly bang on about 'uniting the country' while ignoring that parts of 'the country' are not on-side as regards Brexit. 

Spud

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Re: Britain's next leader
« Reply #124 on: June 21, 2019, 09:09:23 PM »
Can you specify what is or was not there in Scotland - sorry I'm not quite following you.