Author Topic: Matthean priority  (Read 2663 times)

Spud

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #125 on: June 06, 2019, 12:20:42 PM »
In "The Progressive Publication of Matthew" page 565 B Ward Powers writes,

Quote
[Mark] 10:24 MP: Luke omits entirely Mark's record of the response of the disciples to Jesus's
words: "And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again,
'Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!'". Matthew turns "But Jesus said to
them again" into direct speech, "But again I tell you".
[Mark] 10:24 MD: Mark inserts the reaction of the disciples to Jesus's words, and Jesus's
further comments, from his source P.
MP = Markan Priority
MD = Markan Dependency
https://www.sats.edu.za/userfiles/Powers%20DThPOMAL%20Final%20Apr%202010_0.pdf
(My [] brackets)


Mark's version:
17And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 18And Jesus said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. 19You know the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honor your father and mother. 20And he answered and said to him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. 21Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said to him, One thing you lack: go your way, sell whatever you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. 22And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

23And Jesus looked round about, and said to his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 24And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answers again, and said to them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 26And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? 27And Jesus looking on them said, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.


Matthew's version:
16And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments. 18He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 20The young man said to him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21Jesus said to him, If you will be perfect, go and sell that you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23Then said Jesus to his disciples, Truly I say to you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24And again I say to you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26But Jesus beheld them, and said to them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Luke's version:
18And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 19And Jesus said to him, Why call you me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. 20You know the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and your mother. 21And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. 22Now when Jesus heard these things, he said to him, Yet lack you one thing: sell all that you have, and distribute to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. 23And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich. 24And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 25For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 26And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? 27And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

It can be seen from the entire periscope that Matthew and Luke differ 36 times. In 18 of these, Mark agrees with Matthew, and in the other 18, Mark agrees with Luke.
It would be very odd if Matthew and Luke, both using Mark, changed Mark's wording in exactly the places where the other did not. This is what is required by Markan priority. However, with Markan dependence Mark simply conflates Matthew and Luke, at times following one and at times following the other.

Well I think I've got that right. From the above link, page 284:

Quote
There are 36 differences of detail most of them of very minor
significance between Matthew and Luke. Their sources were different eyewitnesses:
this explanation accounts for these pericopes in the Majors as they stand. Then Mark
came to these two different accounts, and he melded them marvelously, on 18
occasions choosing to follow Matthew and on the other 18 to follow Luke. (The list of
these 36 differences and how Mark handles them is set out in Chapter Eleven.)
In this we have a simple, clear-cut, straightforward explanation that accounts fully for
what is found in the three Synoptics. But consider the alternatives and what has to be
explained if Mark is first. With this common starting point, Matthew altered his account
from Mark s in 18 ways, small insignificant changes for the most part, and we have to try
and figure out what he was doing and often we simply have to say, He just felt like
changing it. But then Luke, starting from the same pericope in Mark s Gospel, also
makes 18 changes, but all of them different! Thus are created 36 points of difference
between the Majors, and so, more explanations will need to be sought.
So there are two approaches to explanation: (a) Matthew and Luke
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 12:23:10 PM by Spud »

ippy

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #126 on: June 07, 2019, 12:18:18 PM »
In "The Progressive Publication of Matthew" page 565 B Ward Powers writes,
MP = Markan Priority
MD = Markan Dependency
https://www.sats.edu.za/userfiles/Powers%20DThPOMAL%20Final%20Apr%202010_0.pdf
(My [] brackets)


Mark's version:
17And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 18And Jesus said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. 19You know the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honor your father and mother. 20And he answered and said to him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. 21Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said to him, One thing you lack: go your way, sell whatever you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. 22And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

23And Jesus looked round about, and said to his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 24And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answers again, and said to them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 26And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? 27And Jesus looking on them said, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.


Matthew's version:
16And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments. 18He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 20The young man said to him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21Jesus said to him, If you will be perfect, go and sell that you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23Then said Jesus to his disciples, Truly I say to you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24And again I say to you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26But Jesus beheld them, and said to them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Luke's version:
18And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 19And Jesus said to him, Why call you me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. 20You know the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and your mother. 21And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. 22Now when Jesus heard these things, he said to him, Yet lack you one thing: sell all that you have, and distribute to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. 23And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich. 24And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 25For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 26And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? 27And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

It can be seen from the entire periscope that Matthew and Luke differ 36 times. In 18 of these, Mark agrees with Matthew, and in the other 18, Mark agrees with Luke.
It would be very odd if Matthew and Luke, both using Mark, changed Mark's wording in exactly the places where the other did not. This is what is required by Markan priority. However, with Markan dependence Mark simply conflates Matthew and Luke, at times following one and at times following the other.

Well I think I've got that right. From the above link, page 284:

I sometimes wander if, had John Wane stayed out in Vietnam with the Green Berets the Americans might have won that war?

If you can't see the relevance of my comment to your post Spud, I'll explain if you want me to, you only need ask.

Regards ippy

Spud

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #127 on: June 07, 2019, 04:33:54 PM »
I sometimes wander if, had John Wane stayed out in Vietnam with the Green Berets the Americans might have won that war?

If you can't see the relevance of my comment to your post Spud, I'll explain if you want me to, you only need ask.

Regards ippy

I haven't seen the film, Ippy. But it looks as if you are comparing the Vietnam war with Christian apologetics?

ippy

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #128 on: June 07, 2019, 06:01:06 PM »
I haven't seen the film, Ippy. But it looks as if you are comparing the Vietnam war with Christian apologetics?

No.

Regards ippy

Spud

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #129 on: June 07, 2019, 06:09:03 PM »
No.

Regards ippy
You explain then.

Robbie

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #130 on: June 07, 2019, 06:15:00 PM »
Spud if you google 'John Wayne in Vietnam', you will understand the point Ippy is making.
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          What oft was Thought, but ne’er so well Exprest

Spud

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #131 on: June 07, 2019, 07:07:50 PM »
I'll let ippy explain.

Spud

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #132 on: June 11, 2019, 01:05:02 PM »
Here's another quote from the above link, page 377. Talking about the Markan priority hypothesis, he says:
Quote
Mark's order is always supported by the order of one or both of the other two Synoptics. Of the eighty units into which Mark's Gospel can be divided upon the basis of considerations relating to pericope order, for forty units Mark is supported by only one Gospel, so if that Synoptist had placed any of those forty units into his Gospel at a different place, it would not have been true that Mark's order is always supported. (This can be readily seen from Chapter Nine, where the full eighty pericope groups are set out.) Since by common consent it is agreed that Matthew and Luke are acting independently when they concur with or else depart from Markan order, no explanation is possible for why it did not happen that both Matthew and Luke deserted Markan order at the same point: this circumstance can only be put down to coincidence.
(My italics)

jeremyp

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #133 on: June 11, 2019, 07:18:51 PM »
Here's another quote from the above link, page 377. Talking about the Markan priority hypothesis, he says:(My italics)

Quote
Since by common consent it is agreed that Matthew and Luke are acting independently when they concur with or else depart from Markan order,

But it isn't agreed that they are acting independently.
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Spud

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #134 on: June 12, 2019, 10:59:31 AM »
But it isn't agreed that they are acting independently.
Well spotted - but as he says in his next paragraph,
Quote
Similarly, there can be no collusion about the way in which, whenever a Gospel that
has been supporting Mark is about to leave Mark's order, the other Major Synoptist
always continues adhering to Markan order if he has been doing so in the previous
pericope, or if he has not, he invariably immediately returns to Markan order. This
extraordinary timing must, once again, be attributed to coincidence.
That some of these things could occasionally happen is believable. Such coincid-
ences do happen in life. But that Matthew and Luke should come and go in their support
for Mark's order as often as they do without there being any discernible overall reason
why either of them should have done so, and that their respective comings and goings
should mesh together in the way that we find in the data, strains credulity beyond accep-
tance.

Spud

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #135 on: June 19, 2019, 04:07:04 AM »
Why would Mark and Luke both make up the same name? It makes more sense that Mark is the source and Matthew merely dropped the name. Your hypothesis requires us to make up a second unknown source, to which Ockham says no.
Quite - it is unlikely that Mark and Luke would have made up the same name. More likely is that either: one of them used the other, or that they both had a similar/the same source. What we can say is that Mark is not Matthew's source, since Matthew appears not to be aware that someone from the synagogue ruler's house came along after the healing of the woman with bleeding to tell him his daughter had died - a detail which, assuming the whole story is not fabricated, seems too significant for Matthew to simply ignore. Matthew also appears to be unaware that the woman with bleeding disappeared into the crowd after touching Jesus. He is not using Mark as his source.

Spud

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Re: Matthean priority
« Reply #136 on: June 21, 2019, 08:17:40 PM »
I think that the impression that Mark emphasises Jesus' deeds more than Matthew is largely derived from Mark's rather 'breathless' style: 'immediately Jesus did this, and then he immediately said that'. All the time giving the impression that Jesus is continually on the move. I think it is this sense of movement is really the only real difference of emphasis between the two evangelists - that's of no great consequence. The emphasis on Jesus' words in Mark is, as Jeremy says, just as important.

In Acts 10:37-43 Peter tells Cornelius the gospel message and he starts with John the Baptist and finishes with something that is similar to Mark 16:9ff. This suggests that Mark's gospel was written as more of a summary of the message Peter and other Christians would typically give when evangelizing to the Gentiles. There was no need for the infancy narratives or long sections containing Jesus' teaching; and if Matthew and Luke were already written, there was less need for another long gospel.

Quote
There are a few other details other than the ones mentioned which incline me to opt for the Markan priority view. Matthew appears to omit certain details according to his Jewish agenda.

If so he also makes some irrational changes, such as to Mark's order and appears to be unaware of detail that Mark has written (see my last post, also "withdrawing by boat to a quiet place" - did the people see them go or hear that they had gone?)
Quote
But there are other instances where you sense he's tarting up the bare details of Mark with a fair amount of technicolour enhancement. The matter of the Resurrection is a case in point. The ending of Mark is generally agreed to be a spurious addition, but the accepted genuine words relate that a young man dressed in white simply tells the women that Jesus has risen and is no longer there*. That's not good enough for Matthew: he has to depict the moment of Resurrection with an angel descending to roll away the stone, leaving the guards terrified.
And the witnesses to this were? Presumably the guards (if it happened) - who would be unlikely to divulge details of the occurrence to members of the Christian group whose leader's body they had been entrusted with guarding. In short, Matthew is quite obviously letting his imagination run riot.

Powers says that if Mark ended at 16:8, it would be logically impossible for it to have been the first gospel written. This is because we know from the epistles and church fathers that the early church had already accepted the fact of the resurrection appearances. Why would the author of the first gospel, knowing this, portray the apostles as ignorant of the resurrection and doubting that Jesus was the Messiah? It's more logical to accept that Mark, writing with the primary aim of demonstrating Jesus' identity as the Son of God, was concerned only to report that Jesus had risen.
Quote
*For those (probably few, in this learned forum!) who are not aware of the genuine ending of Mark's gospel, it is as follows:

(the young man in white tells them)“Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen; he is not here. See the place where they laid him. But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.” And they went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had seized them, and they said nothing" The End
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 08:27:24 AM by Spud »