HS2 slippage

[Nearly Sane]

Perhaps an announcement slipped under the drama. Always seemed very much a 19th century solution to a 21st century problem.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49563549

[Aruntraveller]

Slippage?

It's going to go. A good thing to.

[Nearly Sane]

Slippage?

It's going to go. A good thing to.

As I said always seemed like the wrong solution to the wrong problem.

[Harrowby Hall]

And sitting alone in a tin box weighing a ton, permanently removing scarce, dwindling, hydrocarbon stocks from the planetary store whilst simultaneously inserting into the atmosphere gases which contribute to planetary warming is preferred? Properly managed, rail is an excellent transportation mode. Go to Japan to see how it can be used - or if that is too far then France will also be instructive.

And if you are against a third runway being built at Heathrow, you have a high speed connection which goes quite close to four other runways - two at Manchester and one each at Birmingham and East Midlands.

... And as for the land that is being used to beuild this railway ... Heathrow takes up more space than the East Coast main Line.

[Nearly Sane]

You have created a whole solution that wasn"t suggested at all and assumed that is what is being argued.  I say woah to your straw horses.

[Aruntraveller]

I don't think anyone was suggesting air travel is preferable.

I was thinking more of the very medium we are using for business meetings and the like.

As to rail for other purposes - holidays, travelling to family etc, does shaving 40 minutes off a journey make that much difference? Especially in the case of the East Midlands where the hub is stuck in Toton. Not near any City centre, so factor another 20-30 minutes to get into Nottingham city centre, and longer to Derby.

Surely much more sensible to update existing lines, so that we ensure that existing infrastructure is suitable for the 21st century.

[Harrowby Hall]

You have created a whole solution that wasn"t suggested at all and assumed that is what is being argued.  I say woah to your straw horses.

No, I was simply disagreeing with your "19th century solution" jibe.

I suspect that the real problem is that we have a system of public administration that is so focused on micromanagement of every aspect of government that it is totally incompetent when faced with strategic projects.

[Nearly Sane]

No, I was simply disagreeing with your "19th century solution" jibe.

No, you then assumed a whole proposal that had nothing to do with that.

[Harrowby Hall]

I don't think anyone was suggesting air travel is preferable.

I was not suggesting that air transport is preferable, merely trying to point out that a possible benefit of HS2 would be to provide access to air travel in a way which might make the addition of another runway at Heathrow unnecessary.

[Nearly Sane]

I was not suggesting that air transport is preferable, merely trying to point out that a possible benefit of HS2 would be to provide access to air travel in a way which might make the addition of another runway at Heathrow unnecessary.

And yet you portrayed a strawman of air transport as having been suggested. Which it wasn't.

[Harrowby Hall]

And yet you portrayed a strawman of air transport as having been suggested. Which it wasn't.

I haven't got a clue what you are talking about.  In my earliest post I was referring to the motor car.

You should have gone to Specsavers! 

[Aruntraveller]

I haven't got a clue what you are talking about.  In my earliest post I was referring to the motor car.

You should have gone to Specsavers! 

OIC. My mistake.

However HS2 will not solve that issue, until and unless, public transport more widely becomes a more attractive alternative to the public. The main sticking point being cost.

Currently I am doing quite a bit of tooing and froing from Worthing to Nottingham. Cost by train £240 return for 2 people, by coach £180 for 2 people, by car around £70.

Until governments get serious about breaking the headlock the motor industry has this country in HS2 will do bugger all to change anything. In fact as pointed out earlier, it is not even being planned as convenient for people to use.

Have you ever been to Toton. I have.

[Nearly Sane]

OIC. My mistake.

However HS2 will not solve that issue, until and unless, public transport more widely becomes a more attractive alternative to the public. The main sticking point being cost.

Currently I am doing quite a bit of tooing and froing from Worthing to Nottingham. Cost by train £240 return for 2 people, by coach £180 for 2 people, by car around £70.

Until governments get serious about breaking the headlock the motor industry has this country in HS2 will do bugger all to change anything. In fact as pointed out earlier, it is not even being planned as convenient for people to use.

Have you ever been to Toton. I have.

We should be looking to reducing all travel. For a faction of this cost we could have the best fibre optic installed across the country and renewed by the time this is working.

[Roses]

What a terrible waste of money which would have been better spent on the NHS.

[Christine]

I think this project, like so many Conservative policies over the last 10 years, was conceived to funnel public money into private pockets, many of them belonging to friends of the various kleptocrats in office during that time.  Tens of billions of pounds could be used far more effectively to improve this country's infrastructure, but I see no evidence that that's what our current governors are actually interested in.

In the north of England where I live, a train that doesn't look like it might not have been cleaned since it was built in the 19th century is a treat.

[jeremyp]

As I said always seemed like the wrong solution to the wrong problem.

I disagree. We can always do with better public transport and this would result in better public transport.

I think the problem with HS2 is that there are more important public transport issues that should be dealt with before looking at the rail link between London and Birmingham/Manchester.

[ProfessorDavey]

... does shaving 40 minutes off a journey make that much difference?

The issue is capacity rather than speed. HS2 massively increases the capacity for overall rail travel north/south - that it is a bit quicker is valuable, but not the main reason to justify the route.

[ProfessorDavey]

I think this project, like so many Conservative policies over the last 10 years, was conceived to funnel public money into private pockets, many of them belonging to friends of the various kleptocrats in office during that time. 

HS2 was originally conceived under the previous Labour government.

[Harrowby Hall]

  ... by car around £70.

My guess is that you are only considering the cost of fuel for that journey.

Add in depreciation, fixed costs - tax and insurance, maintenance costs, storage costs ... I wouldn't be surprised  if rail didn't become rather more competitive.

[Aruntraveller]

My guess is that you are only considering the cost of fuel for that journey.

Add in depreciation, fixed costs - tax and insurance, maintenance costs, storage costs ... I wouldn't be surprised  if rail didn't become rather more competitive.

Indeed, I was. I did think about factoring it in, but wasn't worth it in the end. The money is already spent on those things which is the way most people view these issues. On top of that I can't load furniture and bits and bobs onto a train in the way I can into the back of my small car. On top of that the convenience/time spent of car travel still in many cases outweighs travel by rail or coach. Not saying that's a good thing, just pointing out that people if they are already running a car generally view it that way.

[ProfessorDavey]

Indeed, I was. I did think about factoring it in, but wasn't worth it in the end. The money is already spent on those things which is the way most people view these issues. On top of that I can't load furniture and bits and bobs onto a train in the way I can into the back of my small car. On top of that the convenience/time spent of car travel still in many cases outweighs travel by rail or coach. Not saying that's a good thing, just pointing out that people if they are already running a car generally view it that way.

That's true - effectively that the basic running costs of a car are 'sunk costs' whether or not you use it. This incentivises people to use their cars more than perhaps they need to once they bought one.

But I think things are changing - we may have gone beyond peak car ownership - certainly I know more and more younger people (particularly in London) who don't have cars, see owning a car as a pain rather than a benefit. If they need to use a car (for the sorts of things you mention) then they'll hire one.

[Nearly Sane]

The 19th century solution destroys the 18th century tree

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/oct/20/former-tree-of-the-year-felled-in-warwickshire-to-make-way-for-hs2?__twitter_impression=true

[Steve H]

Leaves on the line?

[Nearly Sane]

Given the change in work patterns, that were already happening, but have been speeded up by Covid, HS2 seems even more out of time. I don't know whether the protestors here are not making that case clear or whether they are just not having it presented, and the tunnel has become  the lead part of the story by accident.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-55822645

[Anchorman]

And sitting alone in a tin box weighing a ton, permanently removing scarce, dwindling, hydrocarbon stocks from the planetary store whilst simultaneously inserting into the atmosphere gases which contribute to planetary warming is preferred? Properly managed, rail is an excellent transportation mode. Go to Japan to see how it can be used - or if that is too far then France will also be instructive. And if you are against a third runway being built at Heathrow, you have a high speed connection which goes quite close to four other runways - two at Manchester and one each at Birmingham and East Midlands. ... And as for the land that is being used to beuild this railway ... Heathrow takes up more space than the East Coast main Line.

If the English government want this so much, let them pay for it. Taxpayers in the other three nations will not benefit from it, but have to fork out for it.