Are humans unique?

[Roses]

Examples?

Steve I don't know what gets into you, it seems to give you a kick to be unpleasant to other posters.

You misread my post, I suggested apes might be able to achieve in the future what humans are capable of doing today. I didn't say humans might be unique in the future.

[Outrider]

The thread title is "ARE humans unique?", not "WILL humans BE unique in the future?". Pay attention at the back.

And why would our capacity at any arbitrary moment in time be significant?  There's a monkey somewhere that's half-way through the action of hurling his own faeces at a tree - that's probably currently unique, but that doesn't appear to be in the spirit of your question, but then the spirit of your question isn't exactly that clear.

Are you asking if humanity, currently, has a unique capacity amongst terrestrial life for advanced thinking? Well, obviously.  For that trait to be considered universally unique you'd have to have reason to think that there was no extra-terrestrial intelligence of similar capacity, no possibility for any other terrestrial organism to develop such talent in the future and, arguably, to think that it's impossible for an artificial intelligence to be created with the capacity.

Do you think that? If so, yeah, humans are unique. If not, no they aren't.

O.

[Roses]

And why would our capacity at any arbitrary moment in time be significant?  There's a monkey somewhere that's half-way through the action of hurling his own faeces at a tree - that's probably currently unique, but that doesn't appear to be in the spirit of your question, but then the spirit of your question isn't exactly that clear.

Are you asking if humanity, currently, has a unique capacity amongst terrestrial life for advanced thinking? Well, obviously.  For that trait to be considered universally unique you'd have to have reason to think that there was no extra-terrestrial intelligence of similar capacity, no possibility for any other terrestrial organism to develop such talent in the future and, arguably, to think that it's impossible for an artificial intelligence to be created with the capacity.

Do you think that? If so, yeah, humans are unique. If not, no they aren't.

O.

I would be very surprised if humans were the only intelligent lifeforms  in the universe. There could be others more intelligent than us.

[Dicky Underpants]

Steve I don't know what gets into you, it seems to give you a kick to be unpleasant to other posters.

You misread my post, I suggested apes might be able to achieve in the future what humans are capable of doing today. I didn't say humans might be unique in the future.

However, as Steve originally stated, the extreme period of evolutionary stasis exhibited by the great apes suggests that this is unlikely to happen. It may be, as I suggested earlier, that the way their neural pathways have been laid down prevents this kind of 'evolutionary leap', and they have been backed into a dead-end, and may soon become extinct (as we all may, if humanity is not careful!) I don't know what we can judge from the fossil record about such matters, but it does seem that there are numerous examples of creatures which have changed little over millennia (with even some contemporary surviving genera, such as the crocodile) - while all around them other life-forms show evidence of rapid evolutionary change.
There again, with the matter of comparison of chimps, gorillas and humans, we are dealing with a two-fold phenomenon: both biological and cultural evolution, which complicates the question.

Do any boffins here know of any ancient species which appear to have remained in stasis for millennia, and then suddenly appear to have undergone rapid evolutionary change, and had somewhat different descendants which appeared in a relatively short time (in terms of the overall existence of life on earth)?

[Dicky Underpants]

And why would our capacity at any arbitrary moment in time be significant?  There's a monkey somewhere that's half-way through the action of hurling his own faeces at a tree - that's probably currently unique, but that doesn't appear to be in the spirit of your question, but then the spirit of your question isn't exactly that clear

O.

I'm also puzzled by the spirit of Steve's question, though I wonder why there has been so much questioning of his original observation, which seems self-evident. I know Steve is a liberal Christian, and doesn't believe in any kind of traditional god who creates by instant fiat. I also know he is torn between the non-realist god of Don Cupitt, Tillich et al. and some kind of 'realist' god, which would seem to be introducing teleology into evolution. That in turn would indicate the possibility of a kind of vitalism, such as that of Bergson, who definitely thought that evolution was 'going somewhere', and that humanity alone had almost reached that culminating point.

There again, I know Steve has previously spoken out against vitalism, so I ultimately haven't a clue where he's coming from on this one. But no doubt if we keep our cool (and you've certainly done well to keep yours, under provocation), maybe he'll get round to telling us.

[jeremyp]

I wish Ihadn't started this bloody thread now. I'll leave the rest of you to it. 'Bye.

The title of this thread is a question. What were you expecting? Everybody to just post "yes"?

[jeremyp]

Do any boffins here know of any ancient species which appear to have remained in stasis for millennia, and then suddenly appear to have undergone rapid evolutionary change, and had somewhat different descendants which appeared in a relatively short time (in terms of the overall existence of life on earth)?

That's pretty much how it always works isn't it? That's why the hypothesis of punctuated equilibria was invented.

[Steve H]

Steve I don't know what gets into you, it seems to give you a kick to be unpleasant to other posters.

You misread my post, I suggested apes might be able to achieve in the future what humans are capable of doing today. I didn't say humans might be unique in the future.

OK, maybe I was a bit crabby.
Yes, apes might develop high intelligence in the future, a la 'Planet of the Apes', but it will be a long time in the future, given the slow pace of evolution - probably hundreds of thousands of years. There's no guarantee that they will at all: they probablty don't need more intelligence than they've got, being physically well-adapted to their environment in the wild. There's nothing special, in a sense, about intelligence: we evolved it and it helped us survive and thrive, because physically early man wasill-adapted to their environment physically. We must reject the idea of evolution as progress from lower to higher, with humans currently its summit.

[Outrider]

Yes, apes might develop high intelligence in the future, a la 'Planet of the Apes', but it will be a long time in the future, given the slow pace of evolution - probably hundreds of thousands of years. There's no guarantee that they will at all: they probablty don't need more intelligence than they've got, being physically well-adapted to their environment in the wild. There's nothing special, in a sense, about intelligence: we evolved it and it helped us survive and thrive, because physically early man wasill-adapted to their environment physically. We must reject the idea of evolution as progress from lower to higher, with humans currently its summit.

I think that's what most of us have been getting at when we suggest that whilst we aren't currently aware of a similarly advanced intelligence, it's merely another evolved trait that we happen to have - it's unique, but it's not intrinsically special, or at least it wasn't bequeathed to us because we're special.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

I think that's what most of us have been getting at when we suggest that whilst we aren't currently aware of a similarly advanced intelligence, it's merely another evolved trait that we happen to have - it's unique, but it's not intrinsically special, or at least it wasn't bequeathed to us because we're special.

O.

I don't think though that the adaptation is unique, it's just an adaptation that we happen to the most adapted to.

[Roses]

OK, maybe I was a bit crabby.
Yes, apes might develop high intelligence in the future, a la 'Planet of the Apes', but it will be a long time in the future, given the slow pace of evolution - probably hundreds of thousands of years. There's no guarantee that they will at all: they probablty don't need more intelligence than they've got, being physically well-adapted to their environment in the wild. There's nothing special, in a sense, about intelligence: we evolved it and it helped us survive and thrive, because physically early man wasill-adapted to their environment physically. We must reject the idea of evolution as progress from lower to higher, with humans currently its summit.

I get very crabby too, especially with my husband when he doesn't take my advice about his health.

[Steve H]

I get very crabby too, especially with my husband when he doesn't take my advice about his health.

It's said that married men live longer than single men, because their wives nag them to go to the doctor if they've got a minor health problem.
OK, back to the topic, though I think it's run its course.

[Dicky Underpants]

That's pretty much how it always works isn't it? That's why the hypothesis of punctuated equilibria was invented.

I've read several of Stephen J Gould's books, and (not having had any advanced scientific training) I'm still rather puzzled by the hypothesis of 'punctuated equilibrium'. It would certainly seem to explain a lot, especially those apparent 'missing links' in the fossil record (the links are there, but not enough are preserved). I suppose it all depends on sudden rapidly changing environmental conditions, which may jolt an established species into more rapid change. However, the hagfish has remained unchanged for 300 million years - I wonder what it would take to stir it from torpor?

Maybe the necessary genetic component has to be there from the start to allow change in the distant future?

Please enlighten me...

[Outrider]

Got this on my Facebook page today - https://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/a-group-of-panama-monkeys-have-entered-the-stone-age/

Maybe we're not as far away as we thought?

O.

[Sriram]

I have seen videos of crows dropping nuts on the freeway so that cars can run over them and break the shells...after which they eat the nuts inside. They must be in the car age!   

[Steve H]

I have seen videos of crows dropping nuts on the freeway so that cars can run over them and break the shells...after which they eat the nuts inside. They must be in the car age!   

Wow - they'll be sending rockets to the moon next! (Sarcasm.)

[Walter]

Got this on my Facebook page today - https://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/a-group-of-panama-monkeys-have-entered-the-stone-age/

Maybe we're not as far away as we thought?

O.

but does he swear when he traps his fingers ?

that's real progress!

[Nearly Sane]

It gets the parrot to do that

[Nearly Sane]

Wow - they'll be sending rockets to the moon next! (Sarcasm.)

No, It's ok, they'll just say they did.

[Walter]

I have seen videos of crows dropping nuts on the freeway so that cars can run over them and break the shells...after which they eat the nuts inside. They must be in the car age!   

I've seen chimps successfully running a furniture removal firm , wearing flat caps and drinking tea !

[Sriram]

David Attenborough......

http://www.bbc.com/earth/storyoflife/player?clipID=20160713-crows-use-cars-to-crack-nuts

[Roses]

Well, well, well, who would have believed it, I thought it was only humans were the only animal species who could drive cars, not so rats can drive them too!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50167812