Author Topic: God and suffering  (Read 412 times)

Outrider

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2020, 03:31:35 PM »
Yes I think  most have invested in progress and enlightenment and taken it for granted and now we are I think down to having faith that its beliefs and goals will hold true.

Faith and belief, I fear, won't hold the standard - we need to be vigilant and keep working at it.  Recent political developments - the drive for strong-man authoritarian leaders, a rise in nationalism as some of the formerly poorer countries catch up - need to be spoken out against if we are to maintain what we've gained.

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In terms of Mother Theresa either this old lady had her wires crossed...or you do.  I find that someone who can weep at the site of British people living in cardboard boxes in the middle of London is not someone who is as pro suffering as you seem to be suggesting.

And yet, despite the money her celebrity brought in, the mission(s) that she ran in Calcutta were poorly supplied, did not adequately train the caregivers, failed to segregate the terminal from those who could be saved... I don't doubt that, in her way, she cared but it has to stand alongside her works and words, which include the following:

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The suffering of the poor is something very beautiful and the world is being very much helped by the nobility of this example of misery and suffering ... (it is) the most beautiful gift for a person that he can participate in the sufferings of Christ
.

O.
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Walter

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2020, 04:07:18 PM »
   




Why?
Why is my faith 'pathetic'?
not your faith , you.

sounds like the wistful longings of an unrequited love affair

ekim

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2020, 04:33:49 PM »
Today, I concluded my walk by coming back through a church graveyard.  On many of the grave stones was written 'He fell asleep on ........ aged .....'.  Now that's enough to put you off Christianity, being buried after falling asleep.

Anchorman

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2020, 04:40:07 PM »
Today, I concluded my walk by coming back through a church graveyard.  On many of the grave stones was written 'He fell asleep on ........ aged .....'.  Now that's enough to put you off Christianity, being buried after falling asleep.
   

Why?
'Fallen asleep' was a euphamism first used in the New TYestament.
If it was OK then, why not now?
Death, for me, is falling asleep in my bedroom, waking up in my Father's house.
"The rose of all the world is not for me.
I want, for my part only the little white rose of Scotland,
that smells sharp and sweet and breaks the heart."

The return of Vlad

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2020, 04:48:40 PM »
Faith and belief, I fear, won't hold the standard - we need to be vigilant and keep working at it.  Recent political developments - the drive for strong-man authoritarian leaders, a rise in nationalism as some of the formerly poorer countries catch up - need to be spoken out against if we are to maintain what we've gained.

And yet, despite the money her celebrity brought in, the mission(s) that she ran in Calcutta were poorly supplied, did not adequately train the caregivers, failed to segregate the terminal from those who could be saved... I don't doubt that, in her way, she cared but it has to stand alongside her works and words, which include the following:
.

O.
Whether you like it or not belief in Progress and enlightenment and humanism is just that particularly in the face of when it becomes regress in a massive way or we pretend that inhumanity doesn't find other guises. I don't exclude myself from making the investment and then trusted that it would just get better but I've seen many pointers where that is not the case. If it's not a belief why did Pinker feel the need to rally the faithful and why did atheists feel the need to buy the rallying call.

As for Mother Theresa if you look at my post I did make allowance for her getting her wires crossed. Maybe she lost it at the end but she made the effort. She did gout there while frankly a lot of us didn't presumably because we were relying on Progress and enlightenment.

Walter

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2020, 04:58:53 PM »
   

Why?
'Fallen asleep' was a euphamism first used in the New TYestament.
If it was OK then, why not now?
Death, for me, is falling asleep in my bedroom, waking up in my Father's house.
anchs
you seem pretty sure of things, how old will you be when you wake up ?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2020, 05:34:08 PM »
Vlad,

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If it's not a belief why did Pinker feel the need to rally the faithful and why did atheists feel the need to buy the rallying call.

He didn't and they/we didn't. Correcting a perceptual bias isn't "rallying" anything, it's just correcting a perceptual bias.
"To understand via the heart is not to understand."

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ippy

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2020, 05:45:41 PM »




Why?
Why is my faith 'pathetic'?

I've read many of your post Anchorman and you mostly come over to me as one of the sharper tools in the forum's general tool bag, I wouldn't say pathetic more sad to hear and and their's a couple of Douglas Addams quotes come to mind but I would prefer sad mainly because there's no evidence around that supports any of the magical, mystical or superstition based parts of this bible of yours, it's a big round zero, you must be aware of this, you're not stupid, so why?

ippy.

jeremyp

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2020, 07:12:51 PM »
Why?
'Fallen asleep' was a euphamism first used in the New TYestament.
If it was OK then, why not now?
I don't like euphemisms for death at all. Why can't we just say "he died"?
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Death, for me, is falling asleep in my bedroom, waking up in my Father's house.
There's no waking up from death. That's the point.
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Anchorman

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2020, 09:47:55 PM »
I don't like euphemisms for death at all. Why can't we just say "he died"? There's no waking up from death. That's the point.
'Sleepers' was part of what seems to have been the earliest recorded hymn, the first line of which is quoted in Scripture, hebce its' use "Wake up, o sleeper, and rise from the dead And Christ will shine on you!" (Eph 5:13)
"The rose of all the world is not for me.
I want, for my part only the little white rose of Scotland,
that smells sharp and sweet and breaks the heart."

Walter

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2020, 09:53:09 PM »
'Sleepers' was part of what seems to have been the earliest recorded hymn, the first line of which is quoted in Scripture, hebce its' use "Wake up, o sleeper, and rise from the dead And Christ will shine on you!" (Eph 5:13)
anchs

well bugger me and there's me thinking we're all fucked !

Walter

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2020, 10:15:08 PM »
'Sleepers' was part of what seems to have been the earliest recorded hymn, the first line of which is quoted in Scripture, hebce its' use "Wake up, o sleeper, and rise from the dead And Christ will shine on you!" (Eph 5:13)
anchs

tell you what mate , in the current situation , I wont bother god as long as you don't bother the NHS

Walter

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2020, 10:30:02 PM »
AND GOD IS WEEPING WITH US

the sly nasty slimy serpent cunt


or the ABofC is fearing for his job (power)  No, the second line applies to him too.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2020, 10:43:07 PM by Walter »

ekim

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2020, 09:05:54 AM »
Oh dear, I just knew I should have put a  ;) after my post.

ippy

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2020, 11:04:25 AM »
Why not title this thread 'Elves, Fairies and Suffering'?

When I think of the time all of these people spend moaning, groaning and wailing around whilst inside so many over elaborate old buildings, plus plenty of other time wasted discussing a subject that rather obviously to most people here in the UK and come to that most of northern Europe as well, where these these myths are mainly viewed as man made and as such really not worth spending so much serious time discussing, couldn't all of that time be better spent doing something far more useful, anything that's useful will do?

The old buildings subsidised by the only show in town at the time that had any disposable income are a credit to the craftsmen that built them and very little else.

ippy

enki

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2020, 11:28:10 AM »
Oh dear, I just knew I should have put a  ;) after my post.

Don't worry, Ekim. I got it and thought that it was quite neat.  :)
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Outrider

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2020, 01:57:06 PM »
Whether you like it or not belief in Progress and enlightenment and humanism is just that particularly in the face of when it becomes regress in a massive way or we pretend that inhumanity doesn't find other guises.

You keep lumping humanism - a philosophy - with Enlightenment - an historic period, characterised by the rise in scientific and empirical thinking, at least in the Eurocentric world - and progress - a subjective measure.  Only one of those has any meaning when you describe a 'belief' or 'faith' in it.  The enlightenment happened, we have the documentary evidence, it does not require 'belief'.  Progress is entirely dependent upon how you measure it, but the typical measures of increased life expectancy, reduced infant mortality, reduced absolute poverty, improved healthcare, improved education, greater social mobility, greater personal independence all show a general trend towards 'progress' - it's not continual, it's not evenly distributed, it's not perfect, but it's there.

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I don't exclude myself from making the investment and then trusted that it would just get better but I've seen many pointers where that is not the case.

If you've stopped trying to make it happen why are you surprised that it's not happening?

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If it's not a belief why did Pinker feel the need to rally the faithful and why did atheists feel the need to buy the rallying call.

He didn't.  They didn't.

Quote
As for Mother Theresa if you look at my post I did make allowance for her getting her wires crossed. Maybe she lost it at the end but she made the effort. She did gout there while frankly a lot of us didn't presumably because we were relying on Progress and enlightenment.

She made some effort, yes, I don't know enough about her personal take on things to say whether she was knowingly involved in the way the missions were used as a cash-cow for the Catholic Church or if she saw it as a necessary cost of doing the work she could do; the effect, however, was to rake in cash for the Catholic Church ostensibly for the care of those she was ministering to, but very little of which went their way.  Her response to that, and not just near the end, was espouse the virtue of suffering.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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