Vintage sexist ads

[Nearly Sane]

A You Owe It To Him thread

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1255181829235228678.html

[Steve H]

The honeymoon's over...

[Roses]

He owes it to me BIG TIME!

[ProfessorDavey]

A You Owe It To Him thread

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1255181829235228678.html

Jaw dropping.

We've certainly moved a long way over the past few decades, but casual, generalising sexism remains I'm afraid. This from Jenni Murray during her introductory section for woman's hour just this morning:

'Mid-life crisis, the American journalist Gail Sheehy coined the term in the hope it would be a chance for men and women to change their lives. How did it become an excuse for men to buy a fat motorbike or sports car' - my emphasis.

Imagine if a male radio presenter described the mid life crisis as an excuse for women to get a boob job!! There would be outrage.

[Nearly Sane]

Jaw dropping.

We've certainly moved a long way over the past few decades, but casual, generalising sexism remains I'm afraid. This from Jenni Murray during her introductory section for woman's hour just this morning:

'Mid-life crisis, the American journalist Gail Sheehy coined the term in the hope it would be a chance for men and women to change their lives. How did it become an excuse for men to buy a fat motorbike or sports car' - my emphasis.

Imagine if a male radio presenter described the mid life crisis as an excuse for women to get a boob job!! There would be outrage.

I don't find reverse sexism like that as offensive though since men still have more power than women

[jeremyp]

'Mid-life crisis, the American journalist Gail Sheehy coined the term in the hope it would be a chance for men and women to change their lives. How did it become an excuse for men to buy a fat motorbike or sports car' - my emphasis.

Imagine if a male radio presenter described the mid life crisis as an excuse for women to get a boob job!! There would be outrage.

Boob jobs are not the same as fast cars and motorbikes. The latter are expensive toys whereas the former is a way to change  your appearance to others (assuming it's an enhancement rather than a reduction). I think it's an indictment of our society that any woman feels it's necessary to get a breast enhancement.

As for fast cars, I bought one in my late forties but not because I wass having a mid life crisis: I have always wanted one and now I could afford one.

[ProfessorDavey]

I don't find reverse sexism like that as offensive though since men still have more power than women

I don't agree - I think we should work to a point where casual sexist generalisation is not acceptable regardless of the perceived 'power'. The point here is that you shouldn't generalise - so even if you might argue that as a group men have more power, that doesn't mean that all individual men necessarily have more power than all individual women. Nor does it mean that the scales are tipped in that respect for all scenarios. A good example would be who gets the kids in divorce cases, where there remains a default position that it will be the mother, unless - rather than a starting point of pure neutrality.

I think if your find a comment sexist if you change the gender then it is sexist in the first place.

[ProfessorDavey]

Boob jobs are not the same as fast cars and motorbikes. The latter are expensive toys whereas the former is a way to change  your appearance to others (assuming it's an enhancement rather than a reduction). I think it's an indictment of our society that any woman feels it's necessary to get a breast enhancement.

Arguably having a flash car is also about changing your appearance to others too.

But, sure perhaps not the best example. But there are plenty of more directly equivalent (and equally sexist) reverse scenarios.

So perhaps:

Imagine if a male radio presenter described the mid life crisis as an excuse for women to go out and buy expensive dresses, or jewellery.

The point remains that Jenni Murray's comment was casually generalising and sexist - and that isn't right and it is no more right if the casual generalisation is about men than it is if it about women.

[Nearly Sane]

I don't agree - I think we should work to a point where casual sexist generalisation is not acceptable regardless of the perceived 'power'. The point here is that you shouldn't generalise - so even if you might argue that as a group men have more power, that doesn't mean that all individual men necessarily have more power than all individual women. Nor does it mean that the scales are tipped in that respect for all scenarios. A good example would be who gets the kids in divorce cases, where there remains a default position that it will be the mother, unless - rather than a starting point of pure neutrality.

I think if your find a comment sexist if you change the gender then it is sexist in the first place.

I didn't say that it wasn't offensive at all, nor did I say that there are no circumstances where women might get a a 'better' deal, so not sure why you have responded as if I did.

[Aruntraveller]

Boob jobs are not the same as fast cars and motorbikes.

Oh come on Jeremy. Everyone knows if a man gets a fast car his dick automatically gets bigger.

[jeremyp]

Imagine if a male radio presenter described the mid life crisis as an excuse for women to go out and buy expensive dresses, or jewellery.

OK. I see your point now. The problem is that the situation is not symmetrical. Society hasn't been sexist against men for a thousand years or more.

[jeremyp]

Oh come on Jeremy. Everyone knows if a man gets a fast car his dick automatically gets bigger.

I certainly don't get sexually aroused by my car.

[Roses]

Oh come on Jeremy. Everyone knows if a man gets a fast car his dick automatically gets bigger.

When my husband was able to drive he was only interested in cars which suited his needs like 4x4s. He never had any interest in owning a fast car, he regarded them as a complete waste of money.

[Nearly Sane]

Oh come on Jeremy. Everyone knows if a man gets a fast car his dick automatically gets bigger.

as long as it's a stick shift.

[Aruntraveller]

as long as it's a stick shift.

And atop it is a big gear shift knob. Oooh Matron.

[Nearly Sane]

And atop it is a big gear shift knob. Oooh Matron.

I may have to work on a Rambling Sid Rumpo version of Tracy Chapman's Fast Car.

[ProfessorDavey]

I didn't say that it wasn't offensive at all, nor did I say that there are no circumstances where women might get a a 'better' deal, so not sure why you have responded as if I did.

All I was saying was that we need to be consistent.

Both on the basis of principle, I don't think that casual, generalising sexist comments aimed at men are any more, or less acceptable than casual, generalising sexist comments aimed at women. Nor that casual, generalising racist comments aimed at white people are any more, or less acceptable than casual, generalising racist comments aimed at black or asian people, for example.

But there is a pragmatic element to this too - if we tolerate casual, generalising sexist comments aimed at men, then some men will see this as double standards and feel either (not unreasonably) aggrieved and will think this therefore gives them (our of fairness) the justification to make casual, generalising sexist comments aimed at women (which is not reasonable).

That's my point.

[Nearly Sane]

All I was saying was that we need to be consistent.

Both on the basis of principle, I don't think that casual, generalising sexist comments aimed at men are any more, or less acceptable than casual, generalising sexist comments aimed at women. Nor that casual, generalising racist comments aimed at white people are any more, or less acceptable than casual, generalising racist comments aimed at black or asian people, for example.

But there is a pragmatic element to this too - if we tolerate casual, generalising sexist comments aimed at men, then some men will see this as double standards and feel either (not unreasonably) aggrieved and will think this therefore gives them (our of fairness) the justification to make casual, generalising sexist comments aimed at women (which is not reasonable).

That's my point.

'A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds'

[ProfessorDavey]

'A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds'

Not heard that quote before, but is it irrelevant as this is not a foolish consistency.

Rather it is a wise one - effectively that if you don't want others to make casual and generalising comments about you based on a certain group that you belong to then don't make similar casual and generalising comments about other based on a certain group that they belong to.

[ippy]

I bought an ex police car at auction a few years back it was far more powerful than I ever expected and it also taught me how relaxing it is to drive powerful cars without a need to break any speed limits.

I can understand those that are sceptical about people that chose to buy these powerful cars if they haven't had the opportunity to drive one.

I can remember I had a job to get a drive in that ex police jobbie, I couldn't get my wife out of the driving seat it was such a delightful drive.

ippy.

[ProfessorDavey]

OK. I see your point now. The problem is that the situation is not symmetrical. Society hasn't been sexist against men for a thousand years or more.

Actually society has expected genders to conform to certain stereotypes and roles for thousands of years. Although, overall this has created an imbalance against women I am interested in the individual, not the generality in terms of sexism. Why, because sexism (and other -isms) affect individuals and are actually failures of generalising. So we need to be on the look out for individual asymmetries as each are just as bad as any other individual asymmetry.

So is it worse if a distribution warehouse refuses to hire a woman for a job of a 'picker' because they (consciously or unconsciously) perceive it to be a job for a man, than if a nursery refuses to hire a man as a nursery worker because they (consciously or unconsciously) perceive it to be a job for a woman. I don't think so, and for that man the notion that in generalising terms the situation is not symmetrical in favour of men is irrelevant as the individual situation is not symmetrical and not in his favour.

[Nearly Sane]

Actually society has expected genders to conform to certain stereotypes and roles for thousands of years. Although, overall this has created an imbalance against women I am interested in the individual, not the generality in terms of sexism. Why, because sexism (and other -isms) affect individuals and are actually failures of generalising. So we need to be on the look out for individual asymmetries as each are just as bad as any other individual asymmetry.

So is it worse if a distribution warehouse refuses to hire a woman for a job of a 'picker' because they (consciously or unconsciously) perceive it to be a job for a man, than if a nursery refuses to hire a man as a nursery worker because they (consciously or unconsciously) perceive it to be a job for a woman. I don't think so, and for that man the notion that in generalising terms the situation is not symmetrical in favour of men is irrelevant as the individual situation is not symmetrical and not in his favour.

Yes, gender stereotypes are wrong. No, the situation in general is not equivalent.

[Nearly Sane]

Not heard that quote before, but is it irrelevant as this is not a foolish consistency.

Rather it is a wise one - effectively that if you don't want others to make casual and generalising comments about you based on a certain group that you belong to then don't make similar casual and generalising comments about other based on a certain group that they belong to.

It is a brave or foolish person who calls themself wise.

[ProfessorDavey]

Yes, gender stereotypes are wrong. No, the situation in general is not equivalent.

But the situation in general isn't relevant to the individual - what matters to them is the situation to the individual.

It would be a bit like saying that the rape or sexual assault of an individual man is less important than the rape or sexual assault of an individual woman because overall more women are victims of rape or sexual assault. Each individual case is of equal importance regardless of the gender of the victim.

[Sebastian Toe]

When my husband was able to drive he was only interested in cars which suited his needs like 4x4s. He never had any interest in owning a fast car, he regarded them as a complete waste of money.

4x4s, what a complete waste of money!