Author Topic: Having Humanism rammed down my throat.  (Read 207 times)

Your friendly illusion of self.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25760
  • To infinity...and beyond.
Having Humanism rammed down my throat.
« on: May 20, 2020, 08:08:43 PM »
YouTube seems to be pushing Humanism onto me recommending I watch Alice Roberts on behalf of Humanism UK talk about morals without religion....should I watch it or might I be proselytised?
"Woke up this morning ..........felt I was an emergent phenomenon from a brain substrate......that's why zI was born to sing the blues"

Trentvoyager

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6114
Re: Having Humanism rammed down my throat.
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2020, 08:32:59 PM »
YouTube seems to be pushing Humanism onto me recommending I watch Alice Roberts on behalf of Humanism UK talk about morals without religion....should I watch it or might I be proselytised?

You've done something to trigger this. I think you've secretly been watching Sandi Toksvig clips. Come on admit it.
The unfamiliar is not the same as the improbable.

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15415
Re: Having Humanism rammed down my throat.
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2020, 08:40:11 PM »
Vlad

If one wants to prevent something being rammed down one's throat, it may prove helpful to keep one's mouth shut.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11756
Re: Having Humanism rammed down my throat.
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2020, 10:38:53 PM »
YouTube seems to be pushing Humanism onto me recommending I watch Alice Roberts on behalf of Humanism UK talk about morals without religion....should I watch it or might I be proselytised?
Clearly you've spent too much time googling humanism so these videos have starting pinging up on your feed.

Up to you whether to watch or not - but perhaps if you did you might learn a little about the difference between atheism, secularism and humanism.

I suspect you aren't getting any links to anti-theism sites, or philosophical naturalism sites. Why ... well because these don't really exist in the real world as philosophies and positions that people 'sign up to' (unlike atheism, secularism and humanism) - they really only exist in that weird place that is Vlad's brain.

flower girl

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 72
Re: Having Humanism rammed down my throat.
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2020, 02:03:29 AM »
Had never heard of her, but just watched a few videos. Her lecture at U of Birmingham on her "Origins of Us" was interesting.  My belief in God--especially Jesus' emphasis on Love--has never been challenged by science or Darwin's obviously prescient insight into the biological origins of everything that exists today.  Part of that may be why I've moved away from religious doctrine and more towards the basic teachings of Jesus. I have no doubt that future paleontologists, biologist, and those who research evolution will end up finding that the teachings of Jesus will explain most why all life evolved to where we are today.  Those who love, even if that means sacrifice, eventually survive.

One of my most memorable university experiences was being a part of a round table with Ernst Myer who talked about his own research into the evidence of altruism at the cellular level. It was as if a light turned on, and I finally saw how Jesus was giving us the key to the best of life, regardless of where we are on the spectrum, and even if it means sacrifice.  (The key, which is often missed by the most religious in Christianity, is love without thought of personal gain. Sadly, Christianity has too often been more about personal gain than the true love that Jesus said was the true governor of all that is right, of all that is life.)
I wonder now if the most intelligent being in this world is actually a virus.  Me

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15415
Re: Having Humanism rammed down my throat.
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2020, 07:19:16 AM »
Had never heard of her, but just watched a few videos. Her lecture at U of Birmingham on her "Origins of Us" was interesting.  My belief in God--especially Jesus' emphasis on Love--has never been challenged by science or Darwin's obviously prescient insight into the biological origins of everything that exists today.  Part of that may be why I've moved away from religious doctrine and more towards the basic teachings of Jesus. I have no doubt that future paleontologists, biologist, and those who research evolution will end up finding that the teachings of Jesus will explain most why all life evolved to where we are today.  Those who love, even if that means sacrifice, eventually survive.

One of my most memorable university experiences was being a part of a round table with Ernst Myer who talked about his own research into the evidence of altruism at the cellular level. It was as if a light turned on, and I finally saw how Jesus was giving us the key to the best of life, regardless of where we are on the spectrum, and even if it means sacrifice.  (The key, which is often missed by the most religious in Christianity, is love without thought of personal gain. Sadly, Christianity has too often been more about personal gain than the true love that Jesus said was the true governor of all that is right, of all that is life.)

While it may be the case that you can read altruism into the anecdotal Jesus stories, and indeed stories about many other people, would you not agree that the concept of altruism can be understood without reference to Jesus or Christianity and that religions do not have exclusive rights to altruism?

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11756
Re: Having Humanism rammed down my throat.
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2020, 09:44:46 AM »
The key, which is often missed by the most religious in Christianity, is love without thought of personal gain.
But isn't this exactly the core values of humanism, albeit typically expressed in a different manner. In other words a direct relationship between people (no need for god as a middle man or woman) based on empathy and expressed as treating others as you would like to be treated yourself.

Owlswing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6071
Re: Having Humanism rammed down my throat.
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2020, 10:04:27 AM »

Vlad

If one wants to prevent something being rammed down one's throat, it may prove helpful to keep one's mouth shut.


QUIET SNIGGER! Followed by a huge Belly Laugh that I just couldn't keep in!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

flower girl

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 72
Re: Having Humanism rammed down my throat.
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2020, 12:33:28 AM »
While it may be the case that you can read altruism into the anecdotal Jesus stories, and indeed stories about many other people, would you not agree that the concept of altruism can be understood without reference to Jesus or Christianity and that religions do not have exclusive rights to altruism?

Yes.  Yes. For me?  I was just introduced to the concept through Jesus, which is what made him so relevant to me.
I wonder now if the most intelligent being in this world is actually a virus.  Me

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11756
Re: Having Humanism rammed down my throat.
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2020, 08:44:37 AM »
Yes.  Yes. For me?  I was just introduced to the concept through Jesus, which is what made him so relevant to me.
I think that many people brought up within a broadly christian culture are introduced to altruism through Jesus, including me. But as I grew up and learned more about a variety of cultures and societies I recognised that altruism has been around for as long as humans have been around, and also exists in many other social animal species. It is a fundamental attribute that supports the success of social animals.

So Jesus didn't 'invent' altruism (you can thank evolution for that) nor discover or rediscover it (societies have known about it and understood it throughout history). Sure there are some nice stories about altruism involving Jesus, but that's about it really in terms of a unique contribution on altruism from Jesus (and even that isn't unique as there a loads of parable-type stories espousing altruism). 

Littleroses

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4506
  • 'Je suis moi'
Re: Having Humanism rammed down my throat.
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2020, 08:55:15 AM »
YouTube seems to be pushing Humanism onto me recommending I watch Alice Roberts on behalf of Humanism UK talk about morals without religion....should I watch it or might I be proselytised?

Another of your silly posts, if you don't like it, don't watch it! ::)
Let your sorrows travel away on the wind, your joys ride on the clouds and your love mingle with the sunbeams. RJG

flower girl

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 72
Re: Having Humanism rammed down my throat.
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2020, 04:02:50 PM »
So Jesus didn't 'invent' altruism (you can thank evolution for that) nor discover or rediscover it (societies have known about it and understood it throughout history). Sure there are some nice stories about altruism involving Jesus, but that's about it really in terms of a unique contribution on altruism from Jesus (and even that isn't unique as there a loads of parable-type stories espousing altruism).

Agree.  He doesn't claim to either, which is interesting.  What fascinates me about Jesus (and later the teachings of the Buddha) is how anti-survival his message is: "turn the other cheek," "forgive seventy-times seven," "love your enemies," etc... He suggests we not worry about tomorrow in terms of physical comfort and survival, and that those who give up their lives actually save it.   

It was Ernst Mayr who suggested that altruism has been the main driver in survival where one or more puts the genetic group ahead of its individual self, more so than the "fittest" being brute strength and cunning.  I remember thinking as he lectured that this is what Jesus is likely talking about, that we are altogether better off if we think in terms of the others being more important than ourselves.

I don't know exactly where I am with regards to the Christian construct of God's character, role, or plan/design. But, I strongly believe whatever God is, it points to the things Jesus taught, that there is a higher good where most will benefit if we try to adopt them as our own (very difficult to do.)
I wonder now if the most intelligent being in this world is actually a virus.  Me

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11756
Re: Having Humanism rammed down my throat.
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2020, 05:47:40 PM »
It was Ernst Mayr who suggested that altruism has been the main driver in survival where one or more puts the genetic group ahead of its individual self, more so than the "fittest" being brute strength and cunning.  I remember thinking as he lectured that this is what Jesus is likely talking about, that we are altogether better off if we think in terms of the others being more important than ourselves.
I think that is correct that altruism in the human species and other primates that live in highly developed social groups produces a better overall outcome. The point is that survival of the individual is inextricably linked to the strength of the group rather than the strength of the individual. Cooperation is key and cooperation and altruism work hand in hand. There is a lot of work in game theory that support this notion - develop a situation where there are two individuals and one can win big if the other loses and vice versa or both can win small and the most successful behaviour overall is cooperation and a situation of effective reciprocal altruism - each helps out the other with an overall mutually beneficial result.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 06:01:03 PM by ProfessorDavey »

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11756
Re: Having Humanism rammed down my throat.
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2020, 05:52:11 PM »
Agree.  He doesn't claim to either, which is interesting.  What fascinates me about Jesus (and later the teachings of the Buddha) is how anti-survival his message is: "turn the other cheek," "forgive seventy-times seven," "love your enemies," etc... He suggests we not worry about tomorrow in terms of physical comfort and survival, and that those who give up their lives actually save it.
While I have no issue with the tenets of 'love your enemy' etc I do have a problem that Jesus' teaching comes across as a set of rules, without supporting the understanding of 'why' you should follow those rules, except in terms of the religious end-game of paradise.

The humanist message is effectively the same in tenet but the messaging is far more understandable and compelling to me. The basic golden rule - treat others as you would wish to be treated, can be simply substitutes for "turn the other cheek," "forgive seventy-times seven," "love your enemies," but explains much better why and puts empathy, respect and understanding towards other humans front and centre, rather than pleasing god.

Your friendly illusion of self.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25760
  • To infinity...and beyond.
Re: Having Humanism rammed down my throat.
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2020, 07:07:43 PM »
Humanism is merely a Christianity tribute act.
"Woke up this morning ..........felt I was an emergent phenomenon from a brain substrate......that's why zI was born to sing the blues"

Your friendly illusion of self.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25760
  • To infinity...and beyond.
Re: Having Humanism rammed down my throat.
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2020, 07:12:28 PM »
Vlad

If one wants to prevent something being rammed down one's throat, it may prove helpful to keep one's mouth shut.
Humanism would find another hole.
"Woke up this morning ..........felt I was an emergent phenomenon from a brain substrate......that's why zI was born to sing the blues"

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6503
Re: Having Humanism rammed down my throat.
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2020, 08:05:05 PM »
Humanism would find another hole.
...that would be the one that you talk out of most of the time?
 ::)
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Your friendly illusion of self.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25760
  • To infinity...and beyond.
Re: Having Humanism rammed down my throat.
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2020, 08:07:41 PM »
...that would be the one that you talk out of most of the time?
 ::)
Takes one to know one I suppose.
"Woke up this morning ..........felt I was an emergent phenomenon from a brain substrate......that's why zI was born to sing the blues"

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6503
Re: Having Humanism rammed down my throat.
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2020, 08:36:12 PM »
Takes one to know one I suppose.

What happened?
Were you feeling a bit funny?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11756
Re: Having Humanism rammed down my throat.
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2020, 09:20:45 PM »
Humanism is merely a Christianity tribute act.
On the contrary, while people may not describe it as such, the basic concepts of humanism have universality that christianity and other religions cannot compete with as it is amenable to everyone regardless of whether you believe in god or not. I have no doubt that ancient early human societies were living by the basic tenets of humanism tens of thousands of years before christianity arose.

Your friendly illusion of self.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25760
  • To infinity...and beyond.
Re: Having Humanism rammed down my throat.
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2020, 10:00:57 PM »
On the contrary, while people may not describe it as such, the basic concepts of humanism have universality that christianity and other religions cannot compete with as it is amenable to everyone regardless of whether you believe in god or not. I have no doubt that ancient early human societies were living by the basic tenets of humanism tens of thousands of years before christianity arose.
Oh so people of antiquity once slated for being "bronze aged goatherders" were really sophisticated Alice Robert's and Andrew Copson types. What a virtuoso historical revision you weave Professor.

Humanism may once have been an all inclusive thing but alas has lturned into a largely atheist only club.
"Woke up this morning ..........felt I was an emergent phenomenon from a brain substrate......that's why zI was born to sing the blues"

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11756
Re: Having Humanism rammed down my throat.
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2020, 10:08:31 PM »
Oh so people of antiquity once slated for being "bronze aged goatherders" were really sophisticated Alice Robert's and Andrew Copson types. What a virtuoso historical revision you weave Professor.
Oh dear - how poorly informed you are Vlad.

Not only has humanism been around for millennia prior to christianity, but unlike christianity is has sprung up many times in many places completely independently - eg. ancient china, india, early american tribes, greece etc etc. You do understand that the modern coining of the term humanism in the 19thC is directly borrowed from its early Greek formulation which dates back to at least 600 years before Jesus.

Humanism may once have been an all inclusive thing but alas has largely atheist only club.
Untrue humanism does require god, but it perfectly amenable to those who do believe in god. And there is a long, long tradition (much longer than christianity) of theist/religious humanist cultures.

I fully accept the Humanists UK is pretty atheist in its outlook, but to imply that Humanists UK is representative of all strands of humanism now and in the past is as irrelevant as implying that the Westborough Baptist church is representative of all christianity now and in the past. Now, of course that I am implying that HumanistsUk (a forward thinking and positive organisation) is anything like the odious Westborough Baptist church.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 10:11:31 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37746
Re: Having Humanism rammed down my throat.
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2020, 10:21:28 PM »
Oh so people of antiquity once slated for being "bronze aged goatherders" were really sophisticated Alice Robert's and Andrew Copson types. What a virtuoso historical revision you weave Professor.

Humanism may once have been an all inclusive thing but alas has lturned into a largely atheist only club.
is this you doing a is the Pope Catholic headline?  Not a humanist but bemused by what point you think you are making.

Your friendly illusion of self.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25760
  • To infinity...and beyond.
Re: Having Humanism rammed down my throat.
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2020, 09:58:22 AM »
Oh dear - how poorly informed you are Vlad.

Not only has humanism been around for millennia prior to christianity, but unlike christianity is has sprung up many times in many places completely independently - eg. ancient china, india, early american tribes, greece etc etc. You do understand that the modern coining of the term humanism in the 19thC is directly borrowed from its early Greek formulation which dates back to at least 600 years before Jesus.
Untrue humanism does require god, but it perfectly amenable to those who do believe in god. And there is a long, long tradition (much longer than christianity) of theist/religious humanist cultures.

I fully accept the Humanists UK is pretty atheist in its outlook, but to imply that Humanists UK is representative of all strands of humanism now and in the past is as irrelevant as implying that the Westborough Baptist church is representative of all christianity now and in the past. Now, of course that I am implying that HumanistsUk (a forward thinking and positive organisation) is anything like the odious Westborough Baptist church.
Whatever you say might well be true but humanism UK as it stands is the result of infiltration by campaigning atheists like Dawkins. It even imported self professed antitheists like Krauss from the states. It can fairly I think be labelled as a rabid atheist front.
"Woke up this morning ..........felt I was an emergent phenomenon from a brain substrate......that's why zI was born to sing the blues"

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11756
Re: Having Humanism rammed down my throat.
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2020, 10:11:39 AM »
Whatever you say might well be true but humanism UK as it stands is the result of infiltration by campaigning atheists like Dawkins. It even imported self professed antitheists like Krauss from the states. It can fairly I think be labelled as a rabid atheist front.
Straw man argument.

My point was that humanism has been around for considerably longer than christianity (indeed just this morning on radio 4 there was a programme about the ancient Greeks that specifically mentioned humanism), unlike christianity it has sprung up independently in different places and cultures unlike christianity (confirming its broader universality), and that it holding to humanist principles is not incompatible with being a theist.

That HumanistsUK holds a bespoke set of views linking humanism with atheism - so what, they don't define humanism throughout the world and throughout history. Methodists don't believe you should drink alcohol. If you are being consistent in your views Vlad you must surely think that drinking alcohol is not consistent with being a christian - do you Vlad?