' Paris beheading 'Islamist terrorist attack'

[Nearly Sane]

Thoughts are with the teacher's family

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-54579403

[Robbie]

Dreadful. I noted "18-year-old man of Chechen origin who was born in Moscow", when I first saw the headline for some reason I guessed the perp would be a young person but it is just horrific.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Thanks for posting this NS. I logged on to post something but found you had beaten me to it.

Yes my thoughts are also with the poor teacher, his family, the poor pupils at the school, other teachers and the majority of people in France who would not think that murder is the response to offensive pictures.

I thought Macron's words were interesting "'One of our compatriots was murdered today because he taught the freedom to believe or not believe.....It was no coincidence that the terrorist killed a teacher because he wanted to kill the Republic and its values. The Enlightenment, (is) the possibility to make our children, wherever they come from, whatever they believe in, whether they believe or not, whatever their religion, to turn them into free citizens.....This battle is ours and it is existential. They will not pass. Obscurantism and the violence that goes with it will not win. They will not divide us. That's what they seek and we must stand together."   

I hope that they continue to stand firm against the use of violence to silence people and that the media will publicise Muslims in France who condemn this murder in order to try to heal division.

the head of one Muslim organisation, the Muslim World League (MWL), has already condemned the beheading.
https://www.arabnews.com/node/1750226/world

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

It's always difficult to know how far a society can allow freedom of expression to go in practice, because on a practical level you have to consider how does society deal with the resulting divisiveness in a world of funding cuts to police, education, health services, social services, and the recession and mental health issues caused by Covid etc.

Difficult to know the accuracy of some of the information reported by the media about the cartoons shown by the teacher,  Samuel Paty. Some media outlets report that the cartoons showed a nude Prophet Mohamed. The link in the OP says the teacher had advised Muslim students to leave the room if they thought they might be offended by seeing the cartoons and that some Muslim parents had complained to the school about the teacher's decision to use one or more of the cartoons as part of a discussion about the Charlie Hebdo trial.

Apparently this was a discussion the teacher held every year about freedom of expression since the Charlie Hebdo attacks.

The Charlie Hebdo cartoons were offensive caricatures of Prophet Mohamed, which could lead to people making fun of or bullying Muslims, similar to the issue of caricatures of black people leading to racist bullying or mocking cartoons of gay or transgender people leading to bullying of those minorities.

Yet we also sometimes have caricatures and cartoons mocking white, straight, non-trans etc -  lampooning their values and culture.  Defending someone's right to be offensive while finding what they say to be morally repugnant seems to be a cultural value in the West. Or is it? There seems to be a cultural war between those who want to uphold that cultural value and those who want to do away with it - as outlined in this 2017 article by journalist (and former attorney) Glenn Greenwald in the Intercept.

https://theintercept.com/2017/09/01/charlie-hebdo-may-now-be-criticized-because-they-mocked-white-texans-rather-than-muslims/
 

[ippy]

Not many comments in reply to your posts Gabriella, there's no need to be an Einstein etc_______________

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Not many comments in reply to your posts Gabriella, there's no need to be an Einstein etc_______________

Agree with you there - there is no need to be an Einstein to be part of this discussion. The idea of where to draw the line in balancing free speech against offending people / being a free pass for bullying is being discussed by children from at least Year 9 upwards based on conversations I've seen/ heard/ been a part of. It seems to be a discussion that Sam Paty was trying to have in his classroom. He must have thought the discussion would be useful.

Not sure Charlie Hebdo cartoons are good classroom material for impressionable children though - they have a tendency to be puerile from what I have seen of them - so I can understand why some parents complained to the school.

[Dicky Underpants]

Normally, if political critiques and satires are considered puerile, the attitude of civilised people is either to ignore them, laugh them off or seek to educate the ill-informed knobheads who think their infantile screeds are trenchant and witty.
It is odd that in the CH affair the only recourse seemed to be murder, and in the present case, actual decapitation.
Can't help thinking that certain people need to be taught the virtues of the gallic shrug.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Normally, if political critiques and satires are considered puerile, the attitude of civilised people is either to ignore them, laugh them off or seek to educate the ill-informed knobheads who think their infantile screeds are trenchant and witty.
It is odd that in the CH affair the only recourse seemed to be murder, and in the present case, actual decapitation.
Can't help thinking that certain people need to be taught the virtues of the gallic shrug.

Yes some unhinged radicalised Muslims (and non-Muslims) are capable of murdering people that they take offence to rather than walking away. The knife crime statistics are evidence of that. Some of the people who carry out these crimes unfortunately do think they are entitled to educate knob-heads / teach them some kind of lesson by physically attacking/ killing them.

I'm sure out of the people who are offended by Charlie Hebdo cartoons, the majority's response is to ignore them or verbally denounce them or make written or verbal complaints about the cartoons and seek to have them censored in some way. There seem to have been some parents who complained to the school and had a meeting with Sam Paty about him showing the cartoons in the classroom, according to media reports.

ETA: This media site has reported on this response by A Muslim to the Charlie Hebdo cartoons shown in the classroom that doesn't involve killing anyone:

Nordine Chaouadi, a father of a 13-year-old pupil at the secondary school in middle-class Conflans-Sainte-Honorine told Reuters, Paty had told any Muslim students to leave because the cartoon would likely cause offense. For Muslims, any depiction of the Prophet is blasphemous.

Chaouadi said his son, a Muslim, interpreted the teacher’s actions as done out of kindness and respect for their faith."

‘He did it to protect the children, not to shock them,’ said Chaouadi.

https://scallywagandvagabond.com/2020/10/samuel-paty-paris-teacher-decapitated-aboulakh-a-prophet-cartoon/

[Anchorman]

My attitude is that the dead are dead, and mocking them won't make them any deader. Folk have been mocking prophets and false prophets since John the Baptist's folk though it was a waste of time buying anti-dandruff shampoo; Even Christ made a comment about it. We try to educate the ignorant, tolerate the intolerant, and live with the fact that some folk's faith in whatever prophet is so insecure that they can't accept a God who can deal with insults through understanding and forgiveness. Always look on the bright side of life..... SeewhatIdidthere?

[Udayana]

My attitude is that the dead are dead, and mocking them won't make them any deader. Folk have been mocking prophets and false prophets since John the Baptist's folk though it was a waste of time buying anti-dandruff shampoo; Even Christ made a comment about it. We try to educate the ignorant, tolerate the intolerant, and live with the fact that some folk's faith in whatever prophet is so insecure that they can't accept a God who can deal with insults through understanding and forgiveness. Always look on the bright side of life..... SeewhatIdidthere?

I can't see it myself. The Charlie Hebdo cartoons obviously offend many living Muslims, making up to 9% of the French population, and are not targeted at some god or ancient prophet.

And why the need to display material known to be offensive in a discussion of freedom of speech and specifically requesting those who might be offended, to whom the discussion is probably of most benefit to leave and excuse themselves from the discussion?

How would this work for discussion of the holocaust, racism or, say, the crimes of French imperialism?
 
I'd say that if you have to ask or let the people you are trying to educate leave the class, you can't be doing a good job.
 

[Owlswing]

I can't see it myself. The Charlie Hebdo cartoons obviously offend many living Muslims, making up to 9% of the French population, and are not targeted at some god or ancient prophet.

And why the need to display material known to be offensive in a discussion of freedom of speech and specifically requesting those who might be offended, to whom the discussion is probably of most benefit to leave and excuse themselves from the discussion?

How would this work for discussion of the holocaust, racism or, say, the crimes of French imperialism?
 
I'd say that if you have to ask or let the people you are trying to educate leave the class, you can't be doing a good job.

And I cannot see how what you have posted above justifies in any way, shape or form, the decapitation of the teacher - any more than the fact that Fusilier Lee Rigby was a member of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers justified his murder by Michael Adebolajo and Michael Adebowale.

)O(

[Aruntraveller]

And I cannot see how what you have posted above justifies in any way, shape or form, the decapitation of the teacher - any more than the fact that Fusilier Lee Rigby was a member of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers justified his murder by Michael Adebolajo and Michael Adebowale.

)O(

I don't think Udayana was saying that it justified it. He was just questioning the wisdom of the course of action taken by the teacher.

[Owlswing]

I don't think Udayana was saying that it justified it. He was just questioning the wisdom of the course of action taken by the teacher.

So what I said was no more than questioning Lee Rigby's wisdom in his action of joining the Army? Or of leaving his military camp in his uniform?

Is then my questioning the validity of the justification of a Muslim's actions taken to protest the disrespect of a cartoon an open 'invitation' to my being assassinated by another such angry Muslim?

)O(

[jeremyp]

I can't see it myself. The Charlie Hebdo cartoons obviously offend many living Muslims, making up to 9% of the French population, and are not targeted at some god or ancient prophet.

And why the need to display material known to be offensive in a discussion of freedom of speech and specifically requesting those who might be offended, to whom the discussion is probably of most benefit to leave and excuse themselves from the discussion?

How would this work for discussion of the holocaust, racism or, say, the crimes of French imperialism?
 
I'd say that if you have to ask or let the people you are trying to educate leave the class, you can't be doing a good job.

Agreed. They should insist on the people who are offended stay in class and show the offensive images.

It's absurd to have a discussion about some offensive images if the people discussing them don't know what the images are. And it would do a lot of people some good t find out that being offended is not a life threatening situation (well, not for the offended person unless they try to do violence).

[ProfessorDavey]

There seem to have been some parents who complained to the school and had a meeting with Sam Paty about him showing the cartoons in the classroom, according to media reports.

From the media reports I have read it appears to be a single parent who complained and then started an on-line campaign against the teacher. And this parent appears to have had close family links to IS, as it is being reported that his half sister joined IS in Syria in 2014.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

And I cannot see how what you have posted above justifies in any way, shape or form, the decapitation of the teacher - any more than the fact that Fusilier Lee Rigby was a member of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers justified his murder by Michael Adebolajo and Michael Adebowale.

)O(

And I cannot see where anyone is trying to justify decapitating the teacher.

Lots of teachers have been criticised for doing a bad job in the their approach to educating children. Criticising a teacher's approach is not justifying their decapitation. Many teachers were criticised during lockdown - no one suggested that the people criiticising the teachers were trying to justify the murder of teachers as an appropriate response to differences of opinion on education.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Agreed. They should insist on the people who are offended stay in class and show the offensive images.

It's absurd to have a discussion about some offensive images if the people discussing them don't know what the images are. And it would do a lot of people some good t find out that being offended is not a life threatening situation (well, not for the offended person unless they try to do violence).

I would disagree that the children did not know what the images were. I think it was more a case of that they did not want to view puerile images in school. Charlie Hebdo cartoons are not exactly high art. Not that their mediocrity or lack of educational value for school children deserved death. I think an effective teacher would have been able to have a useful discussion about freedom of expression without needing Charlie Hebdo as teaching aids. 

Censoring material shown to children that is deemed too offensive is nothing new. I don't know how long the current trend for safe spaces and trigger warnings for children and university students and adults will continue but people have been banned people on this forum for saying offensive things. So clearly there are those who think that while being offended is not a life threatening situation it is not always acceptable in "polite society".

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

From the media reports I have read it appears to be a single parent who complained and then started an on-line campaign against the teacher. And this parent appears to have had close family links to IS, as it is being reported that his half sister joined IS in Syria in 2014.

I have not been following the story. Do we know if he got much support online for his campaign and was he advocating violence? If he was and no one reported it to the police that's wrong. Or it may have been reported and the police did not act, as has happened here.

What I have read sounds similar to the murder of Jo Cox, the MP murdered by a Far Right sympathiser - who shot and repeatedly stabbed her, shouting: ‘Britain first’. Neo-Nazi literature was found at the murderer's home.

I am glad to hear reports that thousands of people gathered in Paris and other parts of France yesterday to unite in protest against the murder of Sam Paty and to support upholding freedom of expression.

ETA: Just looked it up - one media report says the French prosecutor said the parent's sister-in-law was suspected of joining Daesh in 2014. And that on October 7, a father of one of Paty's pupils called for Paty's dismissal on Facebook. He also filed a complaint and published a YouTube video critical of the teacher. And the prosecutor apparently said that Paty responded with a defamation complaint.

[Nearly Sane]

I have not been following the story. Do we know if he got much support online for his campaign and was he advocating violence? If he was and no one reported it to the police that's wrong. Or it may have been reported and the police did not act, as has happened here.

What I have read sounds similar to the murder of Jo Cox, the MP murdered by a Far Right sympathiser - who shot and repeatedly stabbed her, shouting: ‘Britain first’. Neo-Nazi literature was found at the murderer's home.

I am glad to hear reports that thousands of people gathered in Paris and other parts of France yesterday to unite in protest against the murder of Sam Paty and to support upholding freedom of expression.

ETA: Just looked it up - one media report says the French prosecutor said the parent's sister-in-law was suspected of joining Daesh in 2014. And that on October 7, a father of one of Paty's pupils called for Paty's dismissal on Facebook. He also filed a complaint and published a YouTube video critical of the teacher. And the prosecutor apparently said that Paty responded with a defamation complaint.

Who the fuck cares. A teacher was murdered while trying to teach people about this.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Who the fuck cares. A teacher was murdered while trying to teach people about this.

Moronic response.

You don't care - so who cares what you don't care about.

[Nearly Sane]

Moronic response.

You don't care - so who cares what you don't care about.

Strawman.

[Owlswing]

And I cannot see where anyone is trying to justify decapitating the teacher.

Lots of teachers have been criticised for doing a bad job in their approach to educating children. Criticising a teacher's approach is not justifying their decapitation. Many teachers were criticised during lockdown - no one suggested that the people criticising the teachers were trying to justify the murder of teachers as an appropriate response to differences of opinion on education.

Alright then, you were not trying to justify the decapitation but, to me anyway, you were excusing his murder, if not the method used,

This is the excuse used again and again by militant Muslims - You have offended us - Therefore - You die! - by bomb gun or decapitation but you still die!

People of various religions get offended every day one way or another, why does it seem that only offended Muslims kill and often kill the innocent, if not so in this case.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Strawman.

Boring.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Alright then, you were not trying to justify the decapitation but, to me anyway, you were excusing his murder, if not the method used,

That's as ridiculous as me saying your post is excusing killing all Muslims.

Which bit of my post excuses murder - please quote.

This is the excuse used again and again by militant Muslims - You have offended us - Therefore - You die! - by bomb gun or decapitation but you still die!

People of various religions get offended every day one way or another, why does it seem that only offended Muslims kill and often kill the innocent, if not so in this case.

That's factually incorrect as you would see if you read more on the subject rather than believe the narrative the media portray for their own agenda - the media want you emotionally upset, outraged, scared - it helps them generate revenue for themselves. They don't really care whether the stories they present are factually accurate or if they present facts in a way to manipulate your emotions by using sensationalist language or generalisations or making it seem that a problem is widespread amongst a large group rather than created by a few individuals.

Plenty of other mobs of religious people and non-religious people murdering because they have taken offence. In Sri Lanka there have been Buddhist monks whipping up a mob to kill Muslims for perceived offence. In India Hindus are killing Muslims for perceived offence. In Burma Muslims are the victims of mobs. In China Muslims are in concentration camps being "re-educated" while being forcibly sterilised, used as slave labour, having their organs removed etc. In the US, in Arizona, a Sikh was murdered by someone offended by 9/11 who mistook him for a Muslim.

https://arizonadailyindependent.com/2020/09/15/on-anniversary-of-2001-hate-crime-sikhs-still-fight-for-understanding/

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I did not think it possible but this story just managed to get worse. That poor teacher.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/08/samuel-paty-how-a-teenagers-lie-sparked-a-tragic-chain-of-events

A French schoolgirl has admitted to spreading false claims about a teacher before he was murdered last year.

Samuel Paty was beheaded in October after showing students cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad.

The girl, whose complaints sparked an online campaign against Paty, has now admitted that she was not in the class.

The girl explains in her leaked testimony that she made up the story so as not to disappoint her father.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56325254