Corbyn is not being reinstated as a Labour MP

[Roses]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54986916

I think that is a sensible decision.

[Aruntraveller]

What are your reasons for thinking this is a sensible decision?

[Owlswing]

What are your reasons for thinking this is a sensible decision?

Who do you want to retain? A relatively large number of voters or one M P?

[Aruntraveller]

Who do you want to retain? A relatively large number of voters or one M P?

I wasn't asking about retaining anything, I just don't like statements without reasons, sometimes called assertions.

Plus I'm not clear that under the Labour Party rules that Starmer is actually able to do this.

So I ask again what are the reasons for thinking this is a sensible decision?

[Outrider]

I wasn't asking about retaining anything, I just don't like statements without reasons, sometimes called assertions.

Plus I'm not clear that under the Labour Party rules that Starmer is actually able to do this.

So I ask again what are the reasons for thinking this is a sensible decision?

Starmer can't stop him being accepted as a member of the Labour Party, but what he can do - and has done - is not return the whip to him to allow him to sit as a member of the Parliamentary Party, so he represents his constituency in parliament but not Labour.

As to whether it's retaining one MP or many voters, it's just one example of the broad fracture in the middle of the Labour party that promises to break it into a centre-left element and a union-affiliated moderate- to far-left element.  Keeping Corbyn out invites sympathisers to take sides, but on the other hand letting him back in invites criticism from political opponents.

O.

[Roses]

What are your reasons for thinking this is a sensible decision?

Apart from having been a useless leader of the party, his stance over antisemitism didn't do him any favours whatsoever.

[Aruntraveller]

Apart from having been a useless leader of the party, his stance over antisemitism didn't do him any favours whatsoever.

During your absence I posted a link to everything Corbyn has done for the Jewish community. I'll try and find it when I have time. I think you would be surprised. Keeping taking the tabloids.

[Roses]

During your absence I posted a link to everything Corbyn has done for the Jewish community. I'll try and find it when I have time. I think you would be surprised. Keeping taking the tabloids.

I would never read tabloid trash. My views on Corbyn, whom I think is one worst Labour leaders since Wilson, is based on his performance!

[Nearly Sane]

The decision seems to please no one.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I confess to being shocked that this or any other issue is supposedly militating against a Labour Party wanting to REACH the position of being a credible opposition. Of course it’s still England where such nonsense is even a thing.

Why doesn’t England admit that it’s in love the Tories, It loves their smell, their musk.

[Harrowby Hall]

I confess to being shocked that this or any other issue is supposedly militating against a Labour Party wanting to REACH the position of being a credible opposition. Of course it’s still England where such nonsense is even a thing.

Why doesn’t England admit that it’s in love the Tories, It loves their smell, their musk.

But Vlad, its association with a middle-aged polytechnic Trokskyite has already been "militating against a Labour Party wanting to REACH the position of being a credible opposition" and it has militated against Labour being able to win an election. In our two-party first-past-the-post "democracy" elections are won in the middle ground. Blair (love him or loath him) understood this, I suspect that Starmer does, too. I doubt keeping Corbyn at arm's length will do Starmerany harm at all.

[Aruntraveller]

I would never read tabloid trash. My views on Corbyn, whom I think is one worst Labour leaders since Wilson, is based on his performance!

Except you specifically criticised "his stance over antisemitism".

No arguments from me on his leadership performance, but he simply is not anti-semitic. Against Israel undoubtedly, but that is not the same thing. You can be appalled by the state of Iran and still respect Islam.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But Vlad, its association with a middle-aged polytechnic Trokskyite has already been "militating against a Labour Party wanting to REACH the position of being a credible opposition" and it has militated against Labour being able to win an election. In our two-party first-past-the-post "democracy" elections are won in the middle ground. Blair (love him or loath him) understood this, I suspect that Starmer does, too. I doubt keeping Corbyn at arm's length will do Starmerany harm at all.

With all due respect there is something wrong with a country where the ruling party have demonstrated utter and fatal incompetence and showed little acumen prior to it's most recent
Failure and little in it's current membership of any future acumen.The existence of the conservative party beyond 2024 Should be unthinkable.
As chaos promised from Miliband turned out to be preferable to Cameron. A far less damaging Brexit could have been expected
From Corbyn as could s better response to COVID.

[Harrowby Hall]

With all due respect there is something wrong with a country where the ruling party have demonstrated utter and fatal incompetence and showed little acumen prior to it's most recent
Failure and little in it's current membership of any future acumen.The existence of the conservative party beyond 2024 Should be unthinkable.
As chaos promised from Miliband turned out to be preferable to Cameron. A far less damaging Brexit could have been expected
From Corbyn as could s better response to COVID.

Vlad

I'm sure you have a valid point that you are trying to make - but could you do so in clear and simple English, please?

[Outrider]

With all due respect there is something wrong with a country where the ruling party have demonstrated utter and fatal incompetence and showed little acumen prior to it's most recent Failure and little in it's current membership of any future acumen.The existence of the conservative party beyond 2024 Should be unthinkable.

As chaos promised from Miliband turned out to be preferable to Cameron. A far less damaging Brexit could have been expected From Corbyn as could s better response to COVID.

Vlad, you and I both have to accept that, at the current time, the significant majority of the country are significantly towards the authoritarian and centrist end of the spectrum, regardless of where they stand economically.  Those of us with a more egalitarian take on how business should be run are in the minority, and have been for a while in the UK.  If people thought like us then the continuation of the Tory party would be unthinkable, but the reality is that they don't: Britons in large numbers want central authority, a sense that Britain (in particular England, and even more in particular the home counties) should be the lodestone for all the world's activities and that the days can't come soon enough when Johnny Foreigner (whether it's over Hadrian's Wall or across Britain's seas) learns to do as he's told again, and the comforting stability of tea, royalty and people in suits giving the impression that there are simple answers to complex problems.

O.

[jeremyp]

I would never read tabloid trash. My views on Corbyn, whom I think is one worst Labour leaders since Wilson, is based on his performance!

Wilson was far better than Corbyn.

[Aruntraveller]

Wilson was far better than Corbyn.

Yes I didn't understand that remark. He was, at the very least, competent.

[Robbie]

Apart from having been a useless leader of the party, his stance over antisemitism didn't do him any favours whatsoever.

There are many examples showing he was not antisemitic, this is just one:-
https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/fifty-times-jeremy-corbyn-stood-with-jewish-people/

Trentvoyager today -
Quote from: jeremyp on Today at 11:03:03 AM
Wilson was far better than Corbyn.

Yes I didn't understand that remark. He was, at the very least, competent.
_______
They aren't in competition anyway and Corbyn was never PM.

I think Corbyn has been shabbily treated.

[Aruntraveller]

They aren't in competition anyway and Corbyn was never PM.

I think Corbyn has been shabbily treated.

I agree I think he has been treated less than fairly.

My point about competence stands though, had he been competent enough he may well have got a lot closer to, or even achieved being PM.

[Dicky Underpants]

Except you specifically criticised "his stance over antisemitism".

No arguments from me on his leadership performance, but he simply is not anti-semitic. Against Israel undoubtedly, but that is not the same thing. You can be appalled by the state of Iran and still respect Islam.

I don't suppose for one moment that Corbyn has ever been anti-semitic. However, all this furore started when he stated that "claims of anti-semitism in the Labour party have been exaggerated". He has never withdrawn this statement, despite his recent lame attempt to mitigate the impact of his words. This could indeed be called his "stance on anti-semitism" - not that he himself is an anti-semite, but that he blithely  refuses to acknowledge the extent of the evils which have been flourishing around him.

[Robbie]

I would never read tabloid trash. My views on Corbyn, whom I think is one worst Labour leaders since Wilson, is based on his performance!

What you have said, Littleroses, smacks of tabloid headlines.

What exactly has Jeremy Corbyn done or said or, more likely, what reports have you read about he has said or done, to convince you he is one of the worst Labour leaders since Wilson?  I was always led to believe Wilson was a good leader, however my question is about Corbyn.

[Nearly Sane]

This isn't looking good


https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-row-deepens-allies-23037421.amp?__twitter_impression=true

[Robbie]

I don't suppose for one moment that Corbyn has ever been anti-semitic. However, all this furore started when he stated that "claims of anti-semitism in the Labour party have been exaggerated". He has never withdrawn this statement, despite his recent lame attempt to mitigate the impact of his words. This could indeed be called his "stance on anti-semitism" - not that he himself is an anti-semite, but that he blithely  refuses to acknowledge the extent of the evils which have been flourishing around him.

I believe you are right Dicky though 'blithely' indicates a carefree attitude; I would say Jeremy Corbyn glossed over the antisemitism issue rather too much, or put it on the 'back burner'. That is unsatisfactory, however something that he can address and put right, maybe more effectively as as 'ordinary' MP than as party leader.

NS thanks for the Mirror article. I read the following Guardian article earlier which states what I didn't know (or had 'glossed over' ), that his ban as MP will be reviewed in three months. That is heartening.

I'm also heartened by the amount of support he is getting.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/19/politicised-labour-process-let-corbyn-back-in-says-anneliese-dodds

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Vlad, you and I both have to accept that, at the current time, the significant majority of the country are significantly towards the authoritarian and centrist end of the spectrum, regardless of where they stand economically.  Those of us with a more egalitarian take on how business should be run are in the minority, and have been for a while in the UK.  If people thought like us then the continuation of the Tory party would be unthinkable, but the reality is that they don't: Britons in large numbers want central authority, a sense that Britain (in particular England, and even more in particular the home counties) should be the lodestone for all the world's activities and that the days can't come soon enough when Johnny Foreigner (whether it's over Hadrian's Wall or across Britain's seas) learns to do as he's told again, and the comforting stability of tea, royalty and people in suits giving the impression that there are simple answers to complex problems.

O.

Not sure the evidence about a fair few BAME (especially Asians voting for Brexit) supports your last assertion. I think the reasons for voting Tory are more complex than that. I think many of those who are doing relatively well in life are inclined to believe it is due to their personal qualities rather than arbitrary good fortune and possibly identify with the Tories as being a party of success. Plus the Tories have had 2 female leaders and in the 2019 election it ran 76 BAME candidates. For example Kemi Badenoch (from Nigeria) was re-elected in 2019 as the MP for the Saffron Walden constituency, which is a Tory safe seat in Essex that does not have a large BAME population. Sajid Javed ran for PM, Rishi Sunak is Chancellor, Priti Patel is Home Secretary. 

I know some Asian people voted Brexit because they thought it meant EU immigrants would not have an advantage in getting a job in the UK compared to immigrants from Commonwealth countries.

On the other hand, articles like this show the Tories are willing to support foreign right-wing nationalists to gain political support.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-theresa-may-hungary-sanctions-eu-alliance-populism-right-wing-a8417846.html

Not to mention how Blair's Labour and the Tories have bribed and fawned all over Saudi Arabia in the interests of selling them British arms.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/campaigners-condem-liz-truss-over-500-new-saudi-arms-deals
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/what-we-ve-learned-from-fifty-years-of-saudi-arms-deals/

[Outrider]

Not sure the evidence about a fair few BAME (especially Asians voting for Brexit) supports your last assertion. I think the reasons for voting Tory are more complex than that.

I don't pretend that it's the only reason anyone votes Tory, but it seems to me that it's a significant portion of their core support.

I think many of those who are doing relatively well in life are inclined to believe it is due to their personal qualities rather than arbitrary good fortune and possibly identify with the Tories as being a party of success.

I'm one of them, but it's within a context. I appreciate that there's been elements of luck and good fortune in there, and so I equally appreciate that any number of people either haven't had the opportunity to deploy their talents, or haven't had the opportunity to develop them in the first place - and that's why I can't support a party that wants to strip away every possible state-sponsored support that might balance the field for people.

Plus the Tories have had 2 female leaders and in the 2019 election it ran 76 BAME candidates. For example Kemi Badenoch (from Nigeria) was re-elected in 2019 as the MP for the Saffron Walden constituency, which is a Tory safe seat in Essex that does not have a large BAME population. Sajid Javed ran for PM, Rishi Sunak is Chancellor, Priti Patel is Home Secretary.

Which doesn't in any way detract from the fact that their policies disproportionately have negative impacts on women, the disabled and ethnic minorities.  Of course they're going to trumpet the people who've achieved from those backgrounds despite their best efforts, it feeds into their narrative. 

I know some Asian people voted Brexit because they thought it meant EU immigrants would not have an advantage in getting a job in the UK compared to immigrants from Commonwealth countries.

A slightly different take on 'us vs them', but a variation on the common theme.

Not to mention how Blair's Labour and the Tories have bribed and fawned all over Saudi Arabia in the interests of selling them British arms.

Whilst there are those who might suggest that Blair's Labour was just Tory in red, I fear that sort of activity is just seen as political expediency by Westminster denizens of any stripe - the soft power that the UK arms manufacturers seem to have confounds me.

O.