Author Topic: Corbyn is not being reinstated as a Labour MP  (Read 2686 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Corbyn is not being reinstated as a Labour MP
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2020, 09:26:01 AM »
How can you now possibly associate Conservatives with success. They have trashed everything.

jeremyp

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Re: Corbyn is not being reinstated as a Labour MP
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2020, 10:18:33 AM »
Except you specifically criticised "his stance over antisemitism".

No arguments from me on his leadership performance, but he simply is not anti-semitic. Against Israel undoubtedly, but that is not the same thing. You can be appalled by the state of Iran and still respect Islam.

His "stance over antisemitism" is his stance with respect to rooting it out of his party which has been painted as not good enough.

I think your second sentence is apposite. Too many people conflate being opposed to what Israel does with being antisemitic.
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: Corbyn is not being reinstated as a Labour MP
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2020, 10:42:09 AM »
"Antisemitic" is really not a good word to use when considering attitudes towards people of Jewish origin.

"Semitic" is an adjective which describes a group of languages of which the most widely spoken is Arabic.
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jeremyp

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Re: Corbyn is not being reinstated as a Labour MP
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2020, 10:45:34 AM »
"Antisemitic" is really not a good word to use when considering attitudes towards people of Jewish origin.

"Semitic" is an adjective which describes a group of languages of which the most widely spoken is Arabic.
And yet we all know that the word "antisemitic" is about hatred of Jews.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 10:55:43 AM by jeremyp »
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Steve H

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Re: Corbyn is not being reinstated as a Labour MP
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2020, 10:52:43 AM »
"Antisemitic" is really not a good word to use when considering attitudes towards people of Jewish origin.

"Semitic" is an adjective which describes a group of languages of which the most widely spoken is Arabic.
Jeremy is right. You are guilty of the etymological fallacy. The word was poorly chosen. but we all know what it means.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Corbyn is not being reinstated as a Labour MP
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2020, 10:55:55 AM »
Which doesn't in any way detract from the fact that their policies disproportionately have negative impacts on women, the disabled and ethnic minorities.  Of course they're going to trumpet the people who've achieved from those backgrounds despite their best efforts, it feeds into their narrative.
Yes I can understand that self-interest would lead to disadvantaged people voting for a party that prioritises addressing their issues, which explains a lot of the Labour BAME votes. However, I'm not sure that Priti Patel, Sajed Javid, Rishi Sunak etc or even Thatcher thought that they achieved their success despite Tories policies. I think their perception is that Tory policies helped them succeed and that Labour policies would have hindered success for them and others like them.

So self-interest could also lead to a significant BAME Tory vote, as many ethnic minority groups seem to be academically and economically out-performing Caucasians and those people are more likely to support Tory policies such as a mandatory requirement for immigrants to learn English or a perceived support for hard-working entrepreneurs and small businesses through their wage and lower tax rate policies, though given the Tory position on IR35 this isn't really true for contractors.  It may be as you say because Tory policies are more authoritarian with an emphasis on discipline, which may appeal to a significant number of ethnic minority voters who want a tougher approach to crime, or it may be that the Tory policies are perceived by hard-working, well-integrated immigrants as serving their families better than Labour policies.

Apparently without female voters the Tory party would not have a majority. Again self-interest seems to be the key to winning female votes by addressing issues that primarily affect women.
https://inews.co.uk/opinion/behind-the-scenes-the-tories-are-desperately-trying-to-win-back-female-voters-254703

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A slightly different take on 'us vs them', but a variation on the common theme.
It's a fair point though that it's fairly arbitrary that Europeans get an immigration advantage denied to Commonwealth citizens. Therefore it's not surprising that a number of immigrants from Commonwealth countries were incentivised to vote against continuing such a policy by voting Tory and Leave.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Corbyn is not being reinstated as a Labour MP
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2020, 11:52:25 AM »
How can you now possibly associate Conservatives with success. They have trashed everything.
Success is relative - and presumably the people who voted Tory don't share your sweeping generalisation. Also I doubt people vote for a party without seriously disagreeing with or being critical of some/many of its policies but there may be a handful of issues they feel so strongly about that they will vote for the party that champions those particular issue eg. Brexit or low taxes or they might vote for a party that is not perceived to have as big a problem with antisemitism in its ranks, despite that party's other failures / corruption / incompetence.
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Outrider

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Re: Corbyn is not being reinstated as a Labour MP
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2020, 11:57:12 AM »
Yes I can understand that self-interest would lead to disadvantaged people voting for a party that prioritises addressing their issues, which explains a lot of the Labour BAME votes. However, I'm not sure that Priti Patel, Sajed Javid, Rishi Sunak etc or even Thatcher thought that they achieved their success despite Tories policies. I think their perception is that Tory policies helped them succeed and that Labour policies would have hindered success for them and others like them.

They probably do, they may even be correct that those policies did help them - on balance, though, they have a more profound negative effect on people from those backgrounds.
 
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So self-interest could also lead to a significant BAME Tory vote, as many ethnic minority groups seem to be academically and economically out-performing Caucasians and those people are more likely to support Tory policies such as a mandatory requirement for immigrants to learn English or a perceived support for hard-working entrepreneurs and small businesses through their wage and lower tax rate policies, though given the Tory position on IR35 this isn't really true for contractors.

Except that education, as with so many other things, is the minimum requirement for moving upwards, but it's not enough in and of itself.  You still need the good fortune and the opportunities that are regularly denied women, the disabled and people of colour.

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It may be as you say because Tory policies are more authoritarian with an emphasis on discipline, which may appeal to a significant number of ethnic minority voters who want a tougher approach to crime, or it may be that the Tory policies are perceived by hard-working, well-integrated immigrants as serving their families better than Labour policies.

By those who support them they are - the idea that everyone is on the same playing field and has the same opportunities is something that Tory members and supporters espouse as inherently fair, and I don't disagree with them that it should be the aspiration.  I find, generally, that they either don't appreciate (or don't want to acknowledge, in some instances) the nuances that mean differentiate between equality and equity.

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Apparently without female voters the Tory party would not have a majority. Again self-interest seems to be the key to winning female votes by addressing issues that primarily affect women.

In this day and age I don't think anyone could achieve a majority in the UK without at least a significant plurality of the female vote; I don't want to give the impression that I think the modern Tory party are trying to take us back to the 1800s, I just feel that they think the work is broadly finished on bringing about equal opportunities.

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It's a fair point though that it's fairly arbitrary that Europeans get an immigration advantage denied to Commonwealth citizens.

It's not arbitrary, it's a result of the way the political realities developed - the Commonwealth countries, on aggregate, moved away from the UK, and the UK moved towards Europe.  Now we're moving away from Europe (and it's questionable whether the Commonwealth generally have a strong urge to move back towards us as much as some of the soundbites in the UK suggest a 'we're getting the old band back together' sort of mentality).  Economically, politically and geographically it made more sense - to many of us it still does, regardless of whether we're going to leave the EU politically or not.

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Therefore it's not surprising that a number of immigrants from Commonwealth countries were incentivised to vote against continuing such a policy by voting Tory and Leave.

There's a great deal of crossover between Tory and Leave voters, but the Leave vote managed to appeal to a large number of Labour voters as well, it's an issue the cut across a huge number of demographics.  One of the reasons that Cambridge Analytica's involvement was so important was because of their ability to quantify the many, many different influences on people and balance them against each other to try and make the small marginal gains that all added up - by focussing on one or two specific messages out of many influences people were convinced in some instances to vote against their own best interests because their perception of the issue wasn't the same as the reality.

That undoubtedly happened both ways, and it undoubtedly happens in other political arenas than just the Brexit referendum, in that instance the Leave campaign appear to have made a significant improvement in how effective they were with it.

The days are long gone, I think, when people's affiliation can easily be summed up  in simple 'Tory/Labour', 'right/left' oversimplifications - intersectionality is the new reality, as much as some of the people making the best use of it might publicly decry it as part of the new 'woke' culture.

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Robbie

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Re: Corbyn is not being reinstated as a Labour MP
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2020, 06:12:20 PM »
"Antisemitic" is really not a good word to use when considering attitudes towards people of Jewish origin.

"Semitic" is an adjective which describes a group of languages of which the most widely spoken is Arabic.

I agree, glad you said that.
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jeremyp

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Re: Corbyn is not being reinstated as a Labour MP
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2020, 06:30:21 PM »
I agree, glad you said that.

But it's irrelevant. Everybody knows what "antisemitic" means. It's origin is irrelevant to the current discussion.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Corbyn is not being reinstated as a Labour MP
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2020, 11:14:42 AM »
Success is relative - and presumably the people who voted Tory don't share your sweeping generalisation. Also I doubt people vote for a party without seriously disagreeing with or being critical of some/many of its policies but there may be a handful of issues they feel so strongly about that they will vote for the party that champions those particular issue eg. Brexit or low taxes or they might vote for a party that is not perceived to have as big a problem with antisemitism in its ranks, despite that party's other failures / corruption / incompetence.
Yes we know all this, but what you are saying is that all that trumps any point I am making. Those who envisage that after the last person is immunised, that the status quo of uninformed, habitual and generational subservience to the worse government in history need to check their mental and/or moral health. National lunacy is not an uncommon phenomenon.

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Re: Corbyn is not being reinstated as a Labour MP
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2020, 01:23:48 PM »
Yes we know all this, but what you are saying is that all that trumps any point I am making. Those who envisage that after the last person is immunised, that the status quo of uninformed, habitual and generational subservience to the worse government in history need to check their mental and/or moral health. National lunacy is not an uncommon phenomenon.
I don't think it's subservience exactly - it's probably more a mix of self-interest, indifference, not preferring the alternative, plus people wanting to believe in promises of a pot of gold for them at the end of the rainbow. Right now the pot of gold seems to be ending the free movement of people and getting out of the corrupt bureaucracy of the EU.
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Robbie

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Re: Corbyn is not being reinstated as a Labour MP
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2020, 01:59:19 PM »
But it's irrelevant. Everybody knows what "antisemitic" means. It's origin is irrelevant to the current discussion.

I wouldn't say it's irrelevant, it is important to know what words mean precisely.
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Owlswing

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Re: Corbyn is not being reinstated as a Labour MP
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2020, 02:38:33 PM »

I don't think it's subservience exactly - it's probably more a mix of self-interest, indifference, not preferring the alternative, plus people wanting to believe in promises of a pot of gold for them at the end of the rainbow. Right now the pot of gold seems to be ending the free movement of people and getting out of the corrupt bureaucracy of the EU.


In my own, admittedly limited, experience of listening to people who did vote "Out", this is/was one of their prime reasons for wanting 'Out", quoting the number of incidents of embezzlement of expenses etc that were carefully shuffled under various carpets with no apparent indictments/punishments.

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Re: Corbyn is not being reinstated as a Labour MP
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2020, 04:14:51 PM »
In my own, admittedly limited, experience of listening to people who did vote "Out", this is/was one of their prime reasons for wanting 'Out", quoting the number of incidents of embezzlement of expenses etc that were carefully shuffled under various carpets with no apparent indictments/punishments.

And yet we have a Brexit government quite happy to ignore tax avoidance and evasion in this country and spend more on catching "benefit scroungers" than on tax avoiders. And just guess where they might claw most of the money back.

(Clue it's not from benefit cheats)

It's almost as if they are saying "we don't like corruption, unless it's our own corruption, in which case chums go ahead fill your boots"
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jeremyp

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Re: Corbyn is not being reinstated as a Labour MP
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2020, 06:12:49 PM »
I wouldn't say it's irrelevant, it is important to know what words mean precisely.

It means precisely "hatred against Jews". Everybody knows that. End of.
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Steve H

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Re: Corbyn is not being reinstated as a Labour MP
« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2020, 06:18:49 PM »
I wouldn't say it's irrelevant, it is important to know what words mean precisely.
You too are guilty of the etymological fallacy. The etymology of the word, or any word, is not necessarily what it means, and is not its "true" meaning. In fact, "antisemitic" has never meant "prejudice against semitic people"; it has always meant, more specifically, "prejudice against Jews".
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Robbie

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Re: Corbyn is not being reinstated as a Labour MP
« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2020, 06:50:29 PM »
Thank you for that Beyonce, I will store the information away for future reference.
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Outrider

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Re: Corbyn is not being reinstated as a Labour MP
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2020, 08:56:52 AM »
I wouldn't say it's irrelevant, it is important to know what words mean precisely.

I think it's probably more important to realise that, in most situations, words don't necessarily have a 'precise' meaning, they have a general meaning that people overlay with their own interpretation and over time that can lead to shifts.  Science, philosophy, law, mathematics, music - these are fields where deliberate and necessary efforts are made to codify precise meanings because it's important, but in everyday life we come to a collective agreement about what words mean.

Hence we have antisemitism drifting away from its historic roots, we have Islamophobia as an example of racism although Islam is not a race, so many others.

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