Inquiry 'found Priti Patel broke behaviour rules'

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Teachers used to be good at it, they raised it to an art form.

I was very unfit after losing a lot of weight suddenly due to being ill for a few days (high temperature etc) in the summer term when I was at university, so I joined the OTC the following term after the summer holidays in order to be yelled and sworn at by the RSM to run round parade grounds and over assault courses etc. I figured that would definitely get me fit as I would be too scared to disobey. So I think they being shouty and scary is a necessary part of the job of an RSM. 

[ippy]

I was just making the point that she seems to have completed one of the things the Tories were elected to do so if she is likely to get them public support, it is unlikely that they will cut her loose for swearing at her civil service staff. I wonder what her swearing consisted of - are we talking "bloody" or was there actual profanity involved. Anyway, the independent ethics adviser concluded that Ms Patel’s behaviour met the definition of bullying adopted by the civil service and therefore she is in breach of the code. The PM unsurprisingly has decided she wasn't in breach.   

I have to admit I have sworne to myself occasionally when reading or hearing remainer comments conveyed and it is quiet well known there's a not so insignificant number of remainers performing tasks on the behalf of the civil service, if this is true I'd be more surprised if Ms Patel hadn't used the odd expletive here and there.

It's I suppose a bit like that old saying that if you throw mud it sticks and those throwing the mud, of course, have never heard this saying before?

ippy.

[Nearly Sane]

I have to admit I have sworne to myself occasionally when reading or hearing remainer comments conveyed and it is quiet well known there's a not so insignificant number of remainers performing tasks on the behalf of the civil service, if this is true I'd be more surprised if Ms Patel hadn't used the odd expletive here and there.

It's I suppose a bit like that old saying that if you throw mud it sticks and those throwing the mud, of course, have never heard this saying before?

ippy.

This reads as if you think it is ok to bully people at work who you are in a position of power over  because you jusldisagree with their politics

[Robbie]

I was very unfit after losing a lot of weight suddenly due to being ill for a few days (high temperature etc) in the summer term when I was at university, so I joined the OTC the following term after the summer holidays in order to be yelled and sworn at by the RSM to run round parade grounds and over assault courses etc. I figured that would definitely get me fit as I would be too scared to disobey. So I think they being shouty and scary is a necessary part of the job of an RSM.

That's normal in the military up to a point and in peacetime nobody has to be in the forces, or the cadets. If they don't like it they can leave.

I was thinking of school where kids are captive. It didn't happen to me but I do remember other girls regularly being picked on and humiliated by teachers, always girls who had no defence. Sheer bullying. It was so unnecessary.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

That's normal in the military up to a point and in peacetime nobody has to be in the forces, or the cadets. If they don't like it they can leave.

I was thinking of school where kids are captive. It didn't happen to me but I do remember other girls regularly being picked on and humiliated by teachers, always girls who had no defence. Sheer bullying. It was so unnecessary.

That doesn't sound good. I don't remember witnessing bullying by teachers.

This is an interesting article from 2019 about bullying in the civil service.

https://www.civilserviceworld.com/in-depth/article/culture-change-dame-sue-owen-on-bullying-in-the-civil-service-existential-crises-and-what-shell-miss-about-whitehall

[Nearly Sane]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/20/priti-patel-home-secretary-behaviour-adviser-standards-quit

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I know the media has its opinions but for future reference the advice on the internet on workplace bullying eg. on gov website, NHS website, ACAS website, worksmart.org.uk is that:

(1) Discrimination or bullying actions can range from unintentional misunderstandings and lack of awareness through to deliberate and malicious acts. People should approach the person they feel is bullying them for an informal chat as the bully may not realise the effect their behaviour is having on people.

(2)The consequences of being found to have bullied someone is not automatic sacking. Options range from informal resolution such as a chat, mediation, counselling for the bully, to disciplinary procedure if the bullying is of a more serious nature. The penalty will depend on the seriousness of the allegations as well as any mitigating factors, for example, whether you apologised promptly and took steps to change your behaviour, your previous disciplinary record and any special circumstances. The penalty can range from dismissal without notice or notice pay through to a formal warning, demotion, loss of bonus, compulsory relocation or transfer, or compulsory training in topics like anger management or diversity. You have a right of appeal.

Therefore, it seems a bit strange to say that the point recorded in the report that Priti Patel's bullying was unintentional is irrelevant, as this is contrary to all of the employer and employee guidance on bullying in the workplace.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I know the media has its opinions but for future reference the advice on the internet on workplace bullying eg. on gov website, NHS website, ACAS website, worksmart.org.uk is that:

(1) Discrimination or bullying actions can range from unintentional misunderstandings and lack of awareness through to deliberate and malicious acts. People should approach the person they feel is bullying them for an informal chat as the bully may not realise the effect their behaviour is having on people.

(2)The consequences of being found to have bullied someone is not automatic sacking. Options range from informal resolution such as a chat, mediation, counselling for the bully, to disciplinary procedure if the bullying is of a more serious nature. The penalty will depend on the seriousness of the allegations as well as any mitigating factors, for example, whether you apologised promptly and took steps to change your behaviour, your previous disciplinary record and any special circumstances. The penalty can range from dismissal without notice or notice pay through to a formal warning, demotion, loss of bonus, compulsory relocation or transfer, or compulsory training in topics like anger management or diversity. You have a right of appeal.

Therefore, it seems a bit strange to say that the point recorded in the report that Priti Patel's bullying was unintentional is irrelevant, as this is contrary to all of the employer and employee guidance on bullying in the workplace.

Patel's previous disciplinary record is appalling. She was allowed to resign for operating an alternative government.

She has had adequate mercy already.Still, better to keep someone who has run an alternative Government close rather than out there.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Patel's previous disciplinary record is appalling. She was allowed to resign for operating an alternative government.

She has had adequate mercy already.Still, better to keep someone who has run an alternative Government close rather than out there.

Maybe. My problem is I'm struggling to care that some civil servants got shouted at occasionally at work.

[Nearly Sane]

Maybe. My problem is I'm struggling to care that some civil servants got shouted at occasionally at work.

You don't remember that the Prittster's previous breach of the ministerial code was not about that?

[Aruntraveller]

Of course it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that Johnson would protect somebody who uses the tactics of intimidation:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7247921/Journalist-Boris-Johnson-discussed-having-beaten-says-Tory-runner-unfit-PM.html

[Gordon]

Whilst reading about this case and the background to the ministerial code, this was referenced: the seven principles of public life. Hard to see how Patel meets these, albeit that could be said of others too (and not just elected politicians).

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-7-principles-of-public-life/the-7-principles-of-public-life--2

[Harrowby Hall]

Thank you for this, Gordon.

Does anyone else recall the occasion when - on camera - a tv journalist questioned a Johnson about (I think - perhaps someone can provide correct information)) a homeless person and showed a photo on his mobile phone to Johnson?  Johnson simply snatched the phone from the journalist and put it in his pocket and dismissed the journalist.

I think that, had it happened to me - recorded on camera, I would have made a formal complaint.

I'm not trying to derail this discussion, just wondering whether the Priti Patel situation is to be expected in the present government.

[Nearly Sane]

Thank you for this, Gordon.

Does anyone else recall the occasion when - on camera - a tv journalist questioned a Johnson about (I think - perhaps someone can provide correct information)) a homeless person and showed a photo on his mobile phone to Johnson?  Johnson simply snatched the phone from the journalist and put it in his pocket and dismissed the journalist.

I think that, had it happened to me - recorded on camera, I would have made a formal complaint.

I'm not trying to derail this discussion, just wondering whether the Priti Patel situation is to be expected in the present government.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/boris-johnson-snatches-reporters-phone-after-refusing-to-look-at-child-asleep-on-hospital-floor/09/12/


I think that there are aspects that were encouraged by Cumming that could be related to but given Patel's previous egregious breach of the ministerial code, it's not clear that this would be just about this govt. I don't see your question as a derail at all.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

You don't remember that the Prittster's previous breach of the ministerial code was not about that?

I'm losing track of all her breaches. I remember she resigned /got sacked for some by Teresa May.

Are you referring to a breach, other than the current one, that she hasn't already resigned / been sacked for?

She and Boris seem to be as cavalier as each other about following rules and ethics so I'm not really surprised by any of this. We knew this from the way the Brexit campaign was conducted.

[Nearly Sane]

I'm losing track of all her breaches. I remember she resigned /got sacked for some by Teresa May.

Are you referring to a breach, other than the current one, that she hasn't already resigned / been sacked for?

She and Boris seem to be as cavalier as each other about following rules and ethics so I'm not really surprised by any of this. We knew this from the way the Brexit campaign was conducted.

Yes, I was meaning the previous breach under May.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41923007

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Yes, I was meaning the previous breach under May.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41923007

If Priti Patel has already been sacked for that breach, can that breach still be taken into consideration when considering if there were extenuating circumstances that means she won't be sacked for this breach? Not sure how it works - as that breach was related to a lack of transparency for which she resigned, and the current breach relates to a different issue. Given the way members of the current government and their advisers have conducted themselves, would it not look a bit sexist if Priti Patel resigned if none of the men bothered to resign?

[Nearly Sane]

If Priti Patel has already been sacked for that breach, can that breach still be taken into consideration when considering if there were extenuating circumstances that means she won't be sacked for this breach? Not sure how it works - as that breach was related to a lack of transparency for which she resigned, and the current breach relates to a different issue. Given the way members of the current government and their advisers have conducted themselves, would it not look a bit sexist if Priti Patel resigned if none of the men bothered to resign?

As far as I am aware, all the other findings of a breach of the ministerial code have lead to resignations, and that's why this case is significant.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

As far as I am aware, all the other findings of a breach of the ministerial code have lead to resignations, and that's why this case is significant.

The guidance on bullying in the work place says to try informally approaching the person and make them aware of how what they are doing is affecting you. The independent report says that this was not done and Priti was not aware that people were feeling bullied. Maybe evidence that Priti Patel was approached informally about people feeling bullied will come out in the constructive dismissal case brought by Philip Rutman, in which case this might be the push needed for her to resign.

[Nearly Sane]

The guidance on bullying in the work place says to try informally approaching the person and make them aware of how what they are doing is affecting you. The independent report says that this was not done and Priti was not aware that people were feeling bullied. Maybe evidence that Priti Patel was approached informally about people feeling bullied will come out in the constructive dismissal case brought by Philip Rutman, in which case this might be the push needed for her to resign.

Rutman has already stated that this was done but he was not approached during the investigation. Not sure that whether it was done is relevant to the finding being that Patel breached the code, and that this seems the one case where that having happened, the minister did not resign.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Rutman has already stated that this was done but he was not approached during the investigation. Not sure that whether it was done is relevant to the finding being that Patel breached the code, and that this seems the one case where that having happened, the minister did not resign.

I prefer evidence that it was done, rather than taking Rutnam's word for it. Maybe the evidence will come to light in the constructive dismissal trial. I don't know one way or the other about the legal procedural aspect of whether Rutnam could or could not be approached because he is involved in an on-going legal case against the government.

True - based on convention Priti Patel is supposed to resign, but I am more interested in justice than convention. In this case, if Priti Patel was not approached and spoken to about bullying then I am not sure if it is justice for her to resign, even if she is in breach of a Ministerial Code and the convention is that Ministers are supposed to resign if in breach.