Author Topic: The Queen is dead.  (Read 21924 times)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #150 on: September 12, 2022, 08:43:01 PM »
''It's democratic innit and that's all that needs to be said'' begs the question Gordon as long as you and your wee wizards refuse to outline any benefits a British Republic would bring in terms of connecting with our history and national soft power, economic and cultural.
I think Britain overstates its soft power, particularly trying to link it to the royals. All sorts of countries have significant soft power - currently China's soft power is coursing through Africa and many other parts of the globe.

There is no doubt that our soft power is diminished compared to when the Queen first came to the throne and is diminishing still. And there are far more important reasons than the monarchy for why we might still punch a little above our weight in terms of soft power. The most obvious being language - being an English speaking country, when much of the world uses English as their second language, if not the first, is hugely important. It makes cultural and economic links and ties much, much easier. And that, of course, has nothing to do with the monarchy per se, but our imperialist legacy and the fact that one of the earlier colonies to break free (the USA) is the biggest economy and the most powerful nation on the planet.

The notion that some hard nosed business people in, say, Indonesia will do a deal because we have a Queen (or a King) who they know exists but have likely never met and never will meet, is non-sense.

Gordon

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #151 on: September 12, 2022, 10:00:26 PM »

The Queens body transported through Scotland evokes a real sense of Scottish Nationhood which a mere nationalist fumbler can only dream of.

For you maybe - but some of us Scots don't share your sense of Scottishness, as the link I posted earlier outlines: what is the basis of your sense of Scottishness? 

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So given that Gordon, ''Sell me the republic''. Same goes for Sane, and Davey.

I'll try again - the obvious benefit of a republic would be the removal of the archaic and dysfunctional monarchy.

Steve H

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #152 on: September 12, 2022, 11:39:09 PM »
Nicola Sturgeon looking daggers* at Liz Truss in St Giles' Cathedral.
*or possibly sgian dubhs.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2022, 02:04:03 PM by Steve H »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #153 on: September 13, 2022, 06:50:31 AM »
For you maybe - but some of us Scots don't share your sense of Scottishness, as the link I posted earlier outlines: what is the basis of your sense of Scottishness?
Born there, all relations are Scottish. The effect Scotland has on me. Are you saying you have to be aloud nationalist to be a Scotsman? Are you about to commit the no true Scotsman fallacy?
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I'll try again - the obvious benefit of a republic would be the removal of the archaic and dysfunctional monarchy.
Fallacy of Modernity, begs the question, dysfunction could be fixed, no actual description of a republic although models of republics go back thousands of years and are also thus archaic and dysfunctional.
You are still not selling it since the impression of a republic your republic is where everything is politicised, Puritan, dour, Driech  and dull.

I’ll try again. What inspiration does such a republic offer to real people?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #154 on: September 13, 2022, 06:52:16 AM »
Nicola Sturgeon looking daggers at Liz Truss in St Giles' Cathedral.
Good, Truss forced into Edinburgh by the protocol of monarchy.

Gordon

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #155 on: September 13, 2022, 07:05:51 AM »
Born there, all relations are Scottish. The effect Scotland has on me. Are you saying you have to be aloud nationalist to be a Scotsman?

No - I didn't say that at all. You said that "The Queens body transported through Scotland evokes a real sense of Scottish Nationhood which a mere nationalist fumbler can only dream of." and I simply wondered where that sense of Scottishness derived from in your case since I being, according do you, a "mere nationalist fumbler" don't share the sentiment you describe.

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Are you about to commit the no true Scotsman fallacy?Fallacy of Modernity, begs the question, dysfunction could be fixed, no actual description of a republic although models of republics go back thousands of years and are also thus archaic and dysfunctional.

Understanding fallacies has never been your strong point, Vlad, as you again demonstrate - you are very good at deploying them though.

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You are still not selling it since the impression of a republic your republic is where everything is politicised, Puritan, dour, Driech  and dull.

I don't know if you have noticed, Vlad, but politics is ubiquitous.

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I’ll try again. What inspiration does such a republic offer to real people?

The removal of an archaic and anti-democratic aspect of the political governance process - but it seems you're too busy thrashing about in faux outrage to process that fairly simple point.

Gordon

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #157 on: September 13, 2022, 09:07:45 AM »
I think Britain overstates its soft power, particularly trying to link it to the royals.
Where can this overstatement be found?
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All sorts of countries have significant soft power - currently China's soft power is coursing through Africa and many other parts of the globe.
Not denying that but their soft power is by dint of the peculiarities of their circumstances e.g. The soft power bestowed by our tradition of constitutional monarchy
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There is no doubt that our soft power is diminished compared to when the Queen first came to the throne and is diminishing still.
This is due to a rash of institutional abolitions with inadequate replacement wrought by right wing politics
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And there are far more important reasons than the monarchy for why we might still punch a little above our weight in terms of soft power.
So what? I'm thinking of tourist draw, the Commonwealth, that 14 countries have the same head of state, Monarchical patronage has raised institutions that aren't half bad. The RCMP, RSPB, RSPCA, Princes trust, RSA
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The notion that some hard nosed business people in, say, Indonesia will do a deal because we have a Queen (or a King) who they know exists but have likely never met and never will meet, is non-sense.
Never suggested it.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #158 on: September 13, 2022, 09:16:10 AM »


I don't know if you have noticed, Vlad, but politics is ubiquitous.
Insufficiently so for you, it seems
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The removal of an archaic and anti-democratic aspect of the political governance process -
It doesn't remove for instance first past the post, Gerrymandering or a whole number of things in politics.

 Look, I like a demolition and perhaps an abolition as much as the next man, Gordon. But they must be done competently, thoughtfully and with something as good or better to put in the gap left. You come over as someone who just likes a quick bang.

 So since we are going to get no further with you regards the merits of a republic I am pleased to know you as Gordon the Abolitionist.


Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #160 on: September 13, 2022, 09:22:21 AM »


Gordon

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #162 on: September 13, 2022, 09:26:54 AM »
Insufficiently so for you, it seems

Now you're guessing what my opinions are.

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It doesn't remove for instance first past the post, Gerrymandering or a whole number of things in politics.

Now you're indulging in whataboutery: but I do agree that aspects of the electoral process, such as FPP, need to be reviewed.

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Look, I like a demolition and perhaps an abolition as much as the next man, Gordon. But they must be done competently, thoughtfully and with something as good or better to put in the gap left. You come over as someone who just likes a quick bang.

I'd imagine that most demolitions, however messy and chaotic it might appear from the sidelines, involves some kind of plan involving a sequence of actions - I'd imagine the abolition of the monarchy and House of Lords would similarly require a plan, and I'd be concerned if it didn't: although Brexit certainly creates a precendent for making major changes without proper planning.

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So since we are going to get no further with you regards the merits of a republic I am pleased to know you as Gordon the Abolitionist.

Then I'll get that printed on a T-shirt and wear it with pride.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2022, 09:31:08 AM by Gordon »

SqueakyVoice

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #163 on: September 13, 2022, 09:34:52 AM »
I'd say that if there is to be a Head of State role, and if that role involves active participation in the processes and decisions of political governance: in essence, it is more than just ceremonial, then the occupant should be the result of an electoral process.
IMO, we should have the Speaker of the House of Commons as the Head of State.They'd be elected (and unelected) by the same process and available for all the ceremonial things.
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What that electoral process should be will require proposals for the electorate to consider: should it be part of the GE arrangements, so that a new Head of State is elected/re-elected wherenever there is a GE, or should it be a separate election and done on a PR basis, and what are the requirements that candidates must meet.
Get elected by a constituency, get elected by the MPs. Seems okay to me.

Nearly Sane

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #164 on: September 13, 2022, 09:54:23 AM »
Hup....let me stop you at ''Boris Johnson''.
The then Foreign Secretary. Stopping me at that pount is merely you sticking your fingers in your ears.

Nearly Sane

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #165 on: September 13, 2022, 10:00:08 AM »
Hmmmmm The last time parliament decided on abolition things didn't quite go according to plan.
Whereas with this royal family we paid £12m to get to protect a nonce.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #166 on: September 13, 2022, 10:01:25 AM »
Where can this overstatement be found?
Here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power#Measurement

Note that the UK ranks second in two of the rankings, 5th in another and not even in the top 10 in another.

Believe the hype about the UK being the soft power super-power and you'd have thought we'd be top by some distance 'cos of the Queen'.

Interesting that France ranks higher overall when you look at the 4 measures - must be because of the selling power of their royals ... err ... nope that's wrong.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #167 on: September 13, 2022, 10:16:02 AM »
Here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power#Measurement

Note that the UK ranks second in two of the rankings, 5th in another
There you go then
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and not even in the top 10 in another.

Believe the hype about the UK being the soft power super-power and you'd have thought we'd be top by some distance 'cos of the Queen'.
Where do you think we would be on the ratings without the monarchy?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2022, 10:26:18 AM by Walt Zingmatilder »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #168 on: September 13, 2022, 10:24:23 AM »
Now you're guessing what my opinions are.
Don't have to as they are advertised on here
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Now you're indulging in whataboutery:
Don't think so since my argument is that the monarchy is independent of the British Political system in many respects not least it doesn't impinge on the adequacy of the democracy I enjoy.
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I'd imagine that most demolitions, however messy and chaotic it might appear from the sidelines, involves some kind of plan involving a sequence of actions - I'd imagine the abolition of the monarchy and House of Lords would similarly require a plan, and I'd be concerned if it didn't: although Brexit certainly creates a precendent for making major changes without proper planning.
Sorry did I say demolition? I meant cultural vandalism for the sheer sake of it.. The point was you are seem more interested in the removal of something cherished rather than the replacement.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #169 on: September 13, 2022, 10:40:48 AM »
IMO, we should have the Speaker of the House of Commons as the Head of State. They'd be elected (and unelected) by the same process and available for all the ceremonial things. Get elected by a constituency, get elected by the MPs. Seems okay to me.
On face value looks appealing since the speaker is a traditional figure BUT Do they hold too much power? and how and when do they get out and about?

Aruntraveller

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #170 on: September 13, 2022, 11:15:09 AM »
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not least it doesn't impinge on the adequacy of the democracy I enjoy.

There is absolutely no way you can provide proof for that assertion. We simply do not know how the monarchy impinges on the political system.

It could be a true statement. It could equally be a load of old bollocks.

We don't know. We aren't told.

We're just the little people.
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. - God is Love.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #171 on: September 13, 2022, 01:16:37 PM »
There is absolutely no way you can provide proof for that assertion. We simply do not know how the monarchy impinges on the political system.

It could be a true statement. It could equally be a load of old bollocks.

We don't know. We aren't told.

We're just the little people.
I get to vote for local and national lawmakers, I would like a vote for an English assembly. I don't want a vote for a ceremonial and non-executive head of State since i'm okay with the one natural forces have delivered.

I admit I have less votes than say Gordon or welsh friends but that is not related to monarchy.

Nearly Sane

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #172 on: September 13, 2022, 01:27:12 PM »
I get to vote for local and national lawmakers, I would like a vote for an English assembly. I don't want a vote for a ceremonial and non-executive head of State since i'm okay with the one natural forces have delivered.

I admit I have less votes than say Gordon or welsh friends but that is not related to monarchy.
Wholly non sequitur, Vlad man!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #173 on: September 13, 2022, 01:32:26 PM »
Wholly non sequitur, Vlad man!
really? How would you have answered Trentvoyager?

Nearly Sane

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Re: The Queen is dead.
« Reply #174 on: September 13, 2022, 01:57:27 PM »
really? How would you have answered Trentvoyager?
Yes, really. Your ineptitude is not my concern to help.