Author Topic: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023  (Read 13989 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #50 on: September 09, 2023, 12:18:34 PM »
I see that ITV are showing all four matches live today which means that it's Rugby World Cup from 11.30 to 22.25 on ITV1 today.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #51 on: September 09, 2023, 05:12:13 PM »
Easy win for Ireland who looked a bit rusty, but possibly all the more impressive for that.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/66754098

Nearly Sane

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #52 on: September 09, 2023, 10:07:19 PM »
Remarkable performance from England, dismal one from Argentina.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/66765159

jeremyp

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #53 on: September 10, 2023, 10:22:01 AM »
Remarkable performance from England, dismal one from Argentina.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/66765159

Dismal all round apart from the result, especially as England now has yet another red card.
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Outrider

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #54 on: September 11, 2023, 09:47:45 AM »
England feeling aggrieved at Curry's red card (my opinion - the right call), particularly in light of the relative leniency shown to Sigren in the Chile-Japan game must actually have something in common with the Scotland supporters after Kriel's miraculous avoidance of any sort of sanction (at this time I've still not seen anything to suggest he's been cited after the game).

All of which then feeds in to the justifiable questions the Fijians must have about the refereeing in their match against Wales. It's a shame that so much of the shine (particularly after the first few matches) has already been taken off some of the performances.

England don't look like they're going to pose any problems for anyone, Australia will not be looking forward to facing Fiji next weekend and Scotland realistically have to face the fact that the draw screwed them over long, long before anyone even looked at who their team for the tournament might be.

O.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #55 on: September 11, 2023, 09:48:34 AM »
Remarkable performance from England, dismal one from Argentina.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/66765159
England really need to sort out their tackling issues.

That said to win with only 14 players for pretty well the entire match is very unusual. One of the issues with rugby is that almost always where you have two reasonably matched sign a sending off (except in the last few minutes) is decisive. Effectively it ruins the game and once they were incredibly rare, now they seem pretty common with is an issue.

jeremyp

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #56 on: September 11, 2023, 11:13:52 AM »
England feeling aggrieved at Curry's red card (my opinion - the right call), particularly in light of the relative leniency shown to Sigren in the Chile-Japan game must actually have something in common with the Scotland supporters after Kriel's miraculous avoidance of any sort of sanction (at this time I've still not seen anything to suggest he's been cited after the game).
Within the rules as they currently stand, it was a red card, but so was the one in the RSA-Scotland game. However, it has got to be looked at because both collisions were accidental and red carding an accidental hit seems really harsh and ruins the game (nrmally) as PD says.

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All of which then feeds in to the justifiable questions the Fijians must have about the refereeing in their match against Wales. It's a shame that so much of the shine (particularly after the first few matches) has already been taken off some of the performances.
I didn't see that match but I gather Fiji has good reason to feel aggrieved, particularly as it came down to one fumbled try (with a difficult conversion).

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England don't look like they're going to pose any problems for anyone,

I think they'll win the remaining games in the group and, if facing Wales in the QF, they could win. Australia would brush them off.
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jeremyp

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #57 on: September 11, 2023, 11:21:45 AM »
England really need to sort out their tackling issues.

I'd be more concerned with their attack. One of the reasons they were doing all the drop goals is because there was nothing else on. The last drop goal was from seven metres. If that's your best option from seven metres out, that's pretty poor, even with a man down.
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That said to win with only 14 players for pretty well the entire match is very unusual. One of the issues with rugby is that almost always where you have two reasonably matched sign a sending off (except in the last few minutes) is decisive. Effectively it ruins the game and once they were incredibly rare, now they seem pretty common with is an issue.

This is true and I thought the sending off was doom for England. The main problem is that the rules around tackles have been changed significantly in response to head injury concerns. The rise in red cards may just be part of the adjustment and when everybody gets used to them, they'll stop happening. Or it may be that it is fundamentally impossible to play rugby within the new rules, in which case, serious questions about safety have to be asked.


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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #58 on: September 11, 2023, 11:31:17 AM »
Within the rules as they currently stand, it was a red card, but so was the one in the RSA-Scotland game. However, it has got to be looked at because both collisions were accidental and red carding an accidental hit seems really harsh and ruins the game (nrmally) as PD says.
But there is always an element of interpretation. This isn't purely objective or we wouldn't have had the crazy yellow, red, yellow, red situation with Farrell which each change being due to different interpretations of the same laws (albeit the first on field decision didn't have the benefit of video evidence).

So the authorities need to look at interpretation and they can choose to err on the side of leniency or harshness as they see fit. Providing this is applied consistently then I see no issue. We've seen similar things in football with handball where there has been changed guidance on interpretation even if the wording of the law hasn't changed.

I do think the authorities need to get a grip on this or we risk seeing games ruined for accidental collisions (where the ball carrier is just as much 'at fault') as the tackler. If that continues happening as we get to the sharp end of the tournament we really will have a problem.

Outrider

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #59 on: September 11, 2023, 01:03:13 PM »
Within the rules as they currently stand, it was a red card, but so was the one in the RSA-Scotland game. However, it has got to be looked at because both collisions were accidental and red carding an accidental hit seems really harsh and ruins the game (nrmally) as PD says.

I'd say neither of them were intentional, but I wouldn't say accidental, they were negligent. In both instance (and the Chile one, too) the tacklers went in upright, and that's always going to come with a high likelihood of a head-clash.

If there's a standard that needs changing it's the idea that you give away a penalty for being overrun at the scrum - if you misalign or drop, fine, but if you're wheeled or driven back I think it should be a free-kick. Why do you give away a penalty because they opposition are better than you at one particular aspect of the game? It's like giving Cheslin Kolbe a penalty every time he outruns someone.

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I didn't see that match but I gather Fiji has good reason to feel aggrieved, particularly as it came down to one fumbled try (with a difficult conversion).

I think the most telling part was that Wales committed something like 6 off-side infringements inside their own 22m (and maybe 9 or 10 penalties in total) before someone got shown a yellow card, whereas Fiji got carded for their second infringement.

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I think they'll win the remaining games in the group and, if facing Wales in the QF, they could win.

I'd be edging towards Wales on what I've seen so far if they were against England, although not by much.

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Australia would brush them off.

Sorry, England (yes, agreed) or Fiji?

O.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #60 on: September 11, 2023, 01:09:06 PM »
I think they'll win the remaining games in the group and, if facing Wales in the QF, they could win. Australia would brush them off.
Realistically I think it is anyone's call which of Australia, England or Wales reach the semi-final (I suspect on Saturday's showing Argentina less likely, but not a foregone conclusion). Highest ranking of any of those teams pre-tournament was 6th.

But the point is that two out of those four will make the semi final, while two from New Zealand, South Africa, Scotland, Ireland and France (lowest ranking pre-tournament was 5th) won't, such is the non-sense of the pool-stage allocation process.

jeremyp

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #61 on: September 11, 2023, 01:25:49 PM »
I'd say neither of them were intentional, but I wouldn't say accidental, they were negligent. In both instance (and the Chile one, too) the tacklers went in upright, and that's always going to come with a high likelihood of a head-clash.

And if the tackler doesn’t go in upright and headbuts the ball carrier’s shoulder, it’s just as dangerous.

This is a rugby match. Things happen fast and concepts like negligence aren’t really helpful.
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jeremyp

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #62 on: September 11, 2023, 01:30:13 PM »
Realistically I think it is anyone's call which of Australia, England or Wales reach the semi-final (I suspect on Saturday's showing Argentina less likely, but not a foregone conclusion). Highest ranking of any of those teams pre-tournament was 6th.

But the point is that two out of those four will make the semi final, while two from New Zealand, South Africa, Scotland, Ireland and France (lowest ranking pre-tournament was 5th) won't, such is the non-sense of the pool-stage allocation process.
No it’s not the point. We’ve had that conversation and we all agree it was bonkers and we’ll have a similar conversation before the next RWC if things don’t change, but right now it’s an irrelevance.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #63 on: September 11, 2023, 01:36:36 PM »
No it’s not the point. We’ve had that conversation and we all agree it was bonkers and we’ll have a similar conversation before the next RWC if things don’t change, but right now it’s an irrelevance.
I don't think it is an irrelevance at all. I think if you are a supporter of Ireland (ranked 1), South Africa (2), France (3), New Zealand (4) or Scotland (5) I think you'd consider it highly relevant.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #64 on: September 11, 2023, 02:08:27 PM »
And if the tackler doesn’t go in upright and headbuts the ball carrier’s shoulder, it’s just as dangerous.

This is a rugby match. Things happen fast and concepts like negligence aren’t really helpful.
It also seems that the tackler seems to be the only one considered culpable for a potentially dangerous incident. Surely the ball carrier can also act in a manner that is dangerous to themselves or the tackler. It seems with some of these incidents both players seem to be equally responsible for a clash of heads.

Outrider

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #65 on: September 11, 2023, 02:49:59 PM »
And if the tackler doesn’t go in upright and headbuts the ball carrier’s shoulder, it’s just as dangerous.

No, it isn't. Not withstanding that there is more 'give' in someone's shoulder than their skull, there is only one head involved, not two.

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This is a rugby match. Things happen fast and concepts like negligence aren’t really helpful.

I know. I played from my school days through to my mid-forties. I know rugby. I know that tackling moved from low to the chest around the turn of the millenium, I know that the mass of players has increased massively in the last quarter century, I know the game has become quicker and I know that it's not hard to aim the tackles lower.

Concepts like negligence aren't just helpful they're explicitly called out in the laws of the game; as the tackling player you are responsible for how you tackle. If you lift someone, you are responsible for how they land. You're supposed to tackle low, but equally we penalise (rightly) people who target the knee during tackles. If we can expect them to aim above the knee we can expect them to aim below the shoulder just as easily - indeed, outside of the professional leagues we're doing that now.

O.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #66 on: September 11, 2023, 02:57:12 PM »
No, it isn't. Not withstanding that there is more 'give' in someone's shoulder than their skull, there is only one head involved, not two.

I know. I played from my school days through to my mid-forties. I know rugby. I know that tackling moved from low to the chest around the turn of the millenium, I know that the mass of players has increased massively in the last quarter century, I know the game has become quicker and I know that it's not hard to aim the tackles lower.

Concepts like negligence aren't just helpful they're explicitly called out in the laws of the game; as the tackling player you are responsible for how you tackle. If you lift someone, you are responsible for how they land. You're supposed to tackle low, but equally we penalise (rightly) people who target the knee during tackles. If we can expect them to aim above the knee we can expect them to aim below the shoulder just as easily - indeed, outside of the professional leagues we're doing that now.

O.
But we mustn't ignore the responsibilities on the player being tackled to. When we are talking about player safety surely both players must bear some responsibility not just the tackler. I'm sure I've read this elsewhere, but there is concern that under the current laws there is an incentive for the player being tackles to ensure head to head, or shoulder to head contact because it will result in the tackler getting a red card. That is not only game-playing but highly dangerous.

Surely if there is evidence that the player with the ball also falls to take action to prevent head/shoulder to head contact or worse appears to ensure it will happen, then the player with the ball should be sent off.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #67 on: September 11, 2023, 03:16:14 PM »
But we mustn't ignore the responsibilities on the player being tackled to. When we are talking about player safety surely both players must bear some responsibility not just the tackler. I'm sure I've read this elsewhere, but there is concern that under the current laws there is an incentive for the player being tackles to ensure head to head, or shoulder to head contact because it will result in the tackler getting a red card. That is not only game-playing but highly dangerous.

Surely if there is evidence that the player with the ball also falls to take action to prevent head/shoulder to head contact or worse appears to ensure it will happen, then the player with the ball should be sent off.
Not the article I think I saw previously, but this is in a similar vein.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/rugby-players-fans-call-ball-27223205

Surely if any contact to the head is dangerous then both the ball carrier and the tackler should carry equal responsibility.

Outrider

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #68 on: September 11, 2023, 03:58:05 PM »
But we mustn't ignore the responsibilities on the player being tackled to. When we are talking about player safety surely both players must bear some responsibility not just the tackler.

Yes. So you aren't allowed to hand-off with a straight arm, you aren't allowed to lead with the elbow, or with the forearm to the face/neck, you aren't allowed to attempt to jump tackles (although they could do with clearing up the grey area about leaping over the try-line...).

Where this becomes problematic is the tendency, particularly of forwards, to head towards the floor and plunge six inches forward at a time; it's inevitable that they'll lead with the head/neck when they do. In these circumstances the tackler cannot do anything to avoid contact with the head, but how you'd alter this area of the game isn't something that I've seen any sensible suggestions on.

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I'm sure I've read this elsewhere, but there is concern that under the current laws there is an incentive for the player being tackles to ensure head to head, or shoulder to head contact because it will result in the tackler getting a red card.

In exactly the same way that there's an incentive for footballers to trail a foot behind them in the box, buying a foul and a penalty. Thankfully, at the moment, there doesn't seem to be much appetite for that sort of behaviour in rugby, although there was talk amongst the commentary teams about that sort of cynicism starting to leak into the game (particularly, if I recall, around Johnny Sexton's response to someone having the temerity to come near him after he'd scored his try). If the requirement is for the tackling player to be entering the tackle shoulder-first and below shoulder height, then if the ball-carrier starts to dip they take on the risks themselves - it should be advised against, for a while at least, and see how it plays out. It would encourage the sort of play you get from the South-Sea Island nations where they get their shoulders through the tackle and off-load behind the defensive line, which makes for attractive, attacking rugby which has to be another benefit (and is what the chest-high tackle was specifically introduced to combat).

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Surely if there is evidence that the player with the ball also falls to take action to prevent head/shoulder to head contact or worse appears to ensure it will happen, then the player with the ball should be sent off.

At the moment, with regards to the sort of incidents that we're seeing, the obligation is on the tackler to position themselves correctly. As I noted above, there are restrictions on what the ball-carrier can do. The reason the obligation is primarily on the tackler is because there are regularly situations where the ball-carrier is already interacting with one or more tacklers when someone enters the tackle area. The point is not to eliminate contact entirely, but rather to reduce the number of impacts - it's not (just) the single concussion incidents that the game is trying to manage, but rather the cumulative effects of repeated, regular head-impacts.

O.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #69 on: September 11, 2023, 05:10:14 PM »
In exactly the same way that there's an incentive for footballers to trail a foot behind them in the box, buying a foul and a penalty.
Exactly my point. But in football the only consequence is likely an unfairly awarded foul and a card for the 'tackler'. In rugby similar game playing is likely to be actively dangerous.

Thankfully, at the moment, there doesn't seem to be much appetite for that sort of behaviour in rugby, although there was talk amongst the commentary teams about that sort of cynicism starting to leak into the game ...
Isn't there - how on earth would you know. I'm hate this notion that somehow footballers cheat but rugby players are somehow all honourable. Let's not forget that this is the sport where, in England, a team used fake blood to deliberately cheat. There has been nothing like that in football, certainly not in this country. And when cheating occurs in scrums (as happens basically all the time and has always happened), it is just described as 'front row dark arts' rather than calling it out for what it is.

So I don't think we have any idea how regularly this is going on because it is really tricky to tell the difference between a deliberate last minute lowering of position from the ballcarrier hoping to induce a high tackle with possible contact to the head (resulting in an engineered yellow or red card for the tackler) and something that is completely accidental. There seems to be a huge incentive to 'coach for the card'. Currently there seems to be little risk of sanction for the ballcarrier and the worst that happens is that the tackler ends up with mitigation that means that they don't get a card or don't get a red. The only way you'd know if there is a lot of coached deliberate stuff going on is to start to penalise ballcarriers and then soon enough you'll find the deliberate stuff begins to disappear.

But I think the fundamental issue here is the current rules somehow seem to assume that the tackler is the only one that can be in the wrong. And also that the ballcarrier is the only one likely to suffer injury with a head collision. Neither seems to be the case to me.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2023, 06:01:13 PM by ProfessorDavey »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #70 on: September 11, 2023, 07:04:35 PM »
Another issue I have with the way the Rugby world cup is formatted is the stop/start nature. Once a tournament starts I want wall to wall fixtures, until you get to the sharp end, when there are only a few teams left and necessarily there needs to be some gap between games. So for big football tournaments you'll get two or three games every day until you reach quarter final stage.

But look at the rugby world cup. Only just started - three days with games and now nothing today and indeed nothing until Thursday. What's the problem - are the organisers so scared that fans aren't committed enough to watch a match on a Monday ... or a Tuesday or for that matter a Wednesday. And weirdly there will be a bunch of teams who will have already played two games before Portugal play their first, which won't happen until next Saturday over a week since the tournament started.

Just odd.


jeremyp

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #71 on: September 12, 2023, 07:19:00 AM »
I don't think it is an irrelevance at all. I think if you are a supporter of Ireland (ranked 1), South Africa (2), France (3), New Zealand (4) or Scotland (5) I think you'd consider it highly relevant.
You’d end up playing and having to beat some of these teams anyway. It’s a done deal and there’s no use moaning about it.
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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #72 on: September 12, 2023, 07:38:56 AM »
Another issue I have with the way the Rugby world cup is formatted is the stop/start nature. Once a tournament starts I want wall to wall fixtures, until you get to the sharp end, when there are only a few teams left and necessarily there needs to be some gap between games. So for big football tournaments you'll get two or three games every day until you reach quarter final stage.

But look at the rugby world cup. Only just started - three days with games and now nothing today and indeed nothing until Thursday. What's the problem - are the organisers so scared that fans aren't committed enough to watch a match on a Monday ... or a Tuesday or for that matter a Wednesday. And weirdly there will be a bunch of teams who will have already played two games before Portugal play their first, which won't happen until next Saturday over a week since the tournament started.

Just odd.
It seems odd to me. Three days without a game then two days with only one game each before two days with three games each. I think the answer is yes, the organisers are concerned about attendance and viewing figures. 
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2023, 08:28:47 AM »
It seems odd to me. Three days without a game then two days with only one game each before two days with three games each. I think the answer is yes, the organisers are concerned about attendance and viewing figures.
Surely mainly because of the greater recovery times, and lower numbers involved, as opposed to a football world cup?

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2023, 11:04:17 AM »
Exactly my point. But in football the only consequence is likely an unfairly awarded foul and a card for the 'tackler'.

In terms of direct influence on the game, in football (which is typically lower scoring that rugby) the effect is actually more likely to be game-changing.

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In rugby similar game playing is likely to be actively dangerous.

I disagree, but I do see your point. I think that, in the main, even people seeking to con the referee will still be seeking to protect themselves whilst they do so and feign injury rather that deliberately sustaining them in order to gain an advantage. There might be errors made which result in injury.

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Isn't there - how on earth would you know.

Decades of watching the game at multiple levels and decades of playing the game (all at lower levels).

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I'm hate this notion that somehow footballers cheat but rugby players are somehow all honourable.

I love it. It's one of the things that makes rugby the game that it is, the spirit in which it is (still) played. It's not absolutely all, and rugby has its own 'grey' areas that people will try to exploit (flankers do love to see how far they can extend the off-side line at the ruck, and the All Blacks always seem to be able to get away with a slightly flatter pass than anyone else can manage), but overwhelmingly you don't see, at any level, rugby players throwing themselves to the floor as though they've been shot trying to get a free kick or a penalty. Football, at every level, from children at school through to the professional level, is riddled with it.

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Let's not forget that this is the sport where, in England, a team used fake blood to deliberately cheat.

We don't forget. It's one of the defining moments of rugby history. The fact that it's so remarked upon, so well-remembered is BECAUSE it's so significantly out of character with how rugby culture typically operates.

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There has been nothing like that in football, certainly not in this country.

There's a fake injury every three minutes in every professional game, not just in this country but around the world. That rugby needing a blood-capsule to try to finesse a blood-injury substitution rule and football hasn't isn't because rugby is 'just as corrupt', but because football doesn't have a blood injury rule.

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And when cheating occurs in scrums (as happens basically all the time and has always happened), it is just described as 'front row dark arts' rather than calling it out for what it is.

Feeding the scrums is one of my pet peeves, in part because it should be so easy to identify and police.

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So I don't think we have any idea how regularly this is going on because it is really tricky to tell the difference between a deliberate last minute lowering of position from the ballcarrier hoping to induce a high tackle with possible contact to the head (resulting in an engineered yellow or red card for the tackler) and something that is completely accidental.

Which is amongst the reasons why world rugby polices the tackler and not the ball-carrier. If you, as the tackler, bend, wrap and drive forwards rather than lifting, there will not be a penalty. It encourages the ball-carrier to stay high, which in turn (as a by-product) encourages off-loading, free-flowing rugby.

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There seems to be a huge incentive to 'coach for the card'. Currently there seems to be little risk of sanction for the ballcarrier and the worst that happens is that the tackler ends up with mitigation that means that they don't get a card or don't get a red.

Nonsense. I see no evidence of anyone being 'coached' to try and draw fouls. I see more evidence of continued leniency towards hazardous tackling (Owen Farrell's repeated no-arms tackle technique being only intermittently penalised, for instance) and 'old-guard' players bemoaning changes to the game resulting in people taking the risk with disregarding the new guidance and continuing to play as they have been.

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The only way you'd know if there is a lot of coached deliberate stuff going on is to start to penalise ballcarriers and then soon enough you'll find the deliberate stuff begins to disappear.

What deliberate stuff? The bits and pieces that ball-carriers can do to cause injury are already policed - leading elbows, straight-arm fends etc.

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But I think the fundamental issue here is the current rules somehow seem to assume that the tackler is the only one that can be in the wrong.

No, but the latest changes to the rules place the duty on the tackler because they are the one most likely to be able to control fully how they enter the tackle situation.

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And also that the ballcarrier is the only one likely to suffer injury with a head collision.

I don't see that it's about protecting solely the ball-carrier, it's about preventing head collisions. It is, however in part, about protecting the ball-carrier, because although the latest few high-profile incidents have been head-on-head collisions, the rules are also about preventing direct contact with the ball-carrier's head from, say, the tackling players' shoulders.

O.
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