Author Topic: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023  (Read 14003 times)

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2023, 11:50:47 AM »
Surely mainly because of the greater recovery times, and lower numbers involved, as opposed to a football world cup?
I understand that you may require a bit more time between games, although in past tournaments this has applied only to the 'big' teams, with minnows expected to play two games in four days.

But even so that doesn't mean you are forced to have days without games at the early stages of the tournament. Each round of games involves eight fixtures, so you could spread that over 8 consecutive days if you wanted and still give every team a massive break between games. More realistically you could spread them over 6 days, still allowing teams a 6 day break between games.

When I get into a tournament, during the group stages I don't want to look at the fixtures that day and find there aren't any, nor the day after, nor the day after than. It makes it really difficult to get a flow to the tournament.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 65801
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2023, 12:03:11 PM »
I understand that you may require a bit more time between games, although in past tournaments this has applied only to the 'big' teams, with minnows expected to play two games in four days.

But even so that doesn't mean you are forced to have days without games at the early stages of the tournament. Each round of games involves eight fixtures, so you could spread that over 8 consecutive days if you wanted and still give every team a massive break between games. More realistically you could spread them over 6 days, still allowing teams a 6 day break between games.

When I get into a tournament, during the group stages I don't want to look at the fixtures that day and find there aren't any, nor the day after, nor the day after than. It makes it really difficult to get a flow to the tournament.
Having the bulk of matches at or around the weekend though surely makes it easier to sell in all sorts of ways, rather than being set up to keep you happy?

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2023, 12:11:06 PM »
In terms of direct influence on the game, in football (which is typically lower scoring that rugby) the effect is actually more likely to be game-changing.
I disagree - in a relatively evenly match pair of teams being down a player, particularly for most of the game is all to often decisive, as it is much more difficult to reorganise in rugby to  fill the gap, so to speak, than it is in football. There are plenty of instances in football where teams down to 10 players frustrate the opposition to achieve a draw or win against similarly matched oppositions. I think it is much, much harder in rugby.

Decades of watching the game at multiple levels and decades of playing the game (all at lower levels).
With respect, these rules have come in fairly recently and in the case of the uplift from yellow to red just in the past few weeks. So experience over decades is pretty irrelevant as for most of that time there would be no gain so no incentive to ensure that the tackler makes contact (however minor) with the ball carriers head.

I love it. It's one of the things that makes rugby the game that it is, the spirit in which it is (still) played. It's not absolutely all, and rugby has its own 'grey' areas that people will try to exploit (flankers do love to see how far they can extend the off-side line at the ruck, and the All Blacks always seem to be able to get away with a slightly flatter pass than anyone else can manage), but overwhelmingly you don't see, at any level, rugby players throwing themselves to the floor as though they've been shot trying to get a free kick or a penalty. Football, at every level, from children at school through to the professional level, is riddled with it.

We don't forget. It's one of the defining moments of rugby history. The fact that it's so remarked upon, so well-remembered is BECAUSE it's so significantly out of character with how rugby culture typically operates.

There's a fake injury every three minutes in every professional game, not just in this country but around the world. That rugby needing a blood-capsule to try to finesse a blood-injury substitution rule and football hasn't isn't because rugby is 'just as corrupt', but because football doesn't have a blood injury rule.

Feeding the scrums is one of my pet peeves, in part because it should be so easy to identify and police.
I think you are being biased because of your love for the game and also an orthodox (but unevidenced) view that football players are all cheats and rugby players are all saints who play the game in the right way. I think one of the issues with rugby is that, unlike football, there are parts of the game where it is almost impossible to see what is going on and it seems to me there is a hell of a lot of cheating (or game playing) going on particularly in scrums, rucks and mauls. Anyone for eye gouging?

I don't see that it's about protecting solely the ball-carrier, it's about preventing head collisions. It is, however in part, about protecting the ball-carrier, because although the latest few high-profile incidents have been head-on-head collisions, the rules are also about preventing direct contact with the ball-carrier's head from, say, the tackling players' shoulders.
But surely there is just as much risk from the ball carriers shoulder hitting the tacking players head. If this is all about risk then both should have equal responsibility and equal consequences if there is contact to the head. But there isn't - the ball carrier is protected by the laws more than the tacker, which means that there is an incentive for the ball carrier to play for the card, but ensuring some (however minor) contact.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2023, 12:15:16 PM »
Having the bulk of matches at or around the weekend though surely makes it easier to sell in all sorts of ways, rather than being set up to keep you happy?
I'm sure I'm not the only person who'd prefer matches on more days than more matches on each day.

Cricket surely has a similar 'profile' issue as rugby. We are about to see the cricket world cup. Starts in 5th Oct. There will be at least one match every day until 12th Nov. They don't seem to see a problem with scheduling matches on Mondays, Tuesdays or Wednesdays.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 65801
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #79 on: September 12, 2023, 12:29:02 PM »
I'm sure I'm not the only person who'd prefer matches on more days than more matches on each day.

Cricket surely has a similar 'profile' issue as rugby. We are about to see the cricket world cup. Starts in 5th Oct. There will be at least one match every day until 12th Nov. They don't seem to see a problem with scheduling matches on Mondays, Tuesdays or Wednesdays.
You may not be the only person who might like it that way but keeping you happy has been the entirety of your argument.

That a different sport may do it differently is simply a fact, not an argument.

What cricket appear to have chosen for marketing is a quite restricted World Cup which lowers the chance of matches involving just countries with smaller supports. I suspect that rugby see packaging those less marketable matches in a flow of closely packed matches as their chosen approach.

I can understand both approaches, and without detailed information on the arguments and figures that are available to governing bodies, can't really disagree or agree with whether it seems correct. What makes me happy though isn't to me relevant.

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #80 on: September 12, 2023, 12:58:38 PM »
I'm sure I'm not the only person who'd prefer matches on more days than more matches on each day.

Cricket surely has a similar 'profile' issue as rugby. We are about to see the cricket world cup. Starts in 5th Oct. There will be at least one match every day until 12th Nov. They don't seem to see a problem with scheduling matches on Mondays, Tuesdays or Wednesdays.

The cricket World Cup is taking place in India. There's no profile problem there.

I think NS is right that this format is designed to maximise recovery times for teams and also attendance and viewing figures. I don't like the hiatuses, but they have clearly decided the advantages of the schedule outweigh that.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #81 on: September 12, 2023, 01:02:11 PM »
You may not be the only person who might like it that way but keeping you happy has been the entirety of your argument.

That a different sport may do it differently is simply a fact, not an argument.
Which has no bearing on my opinion (and presumably the opinion of a bunch of other people), which is that I'd prefer the formatting to have games on more days than more games on individual days.

What cricket appear to have chosen for marketing is a quite restricted World Cup which lowers the chance of matches involving just countries with smaller supports. I suspect that rugby see packaging those less marketable matches in a flow of closely packed matches as their chosen approach.
Which we've discussed previously and I think you were in agreement that the rugby world cup has too many teams involved as there simply aren't enough of a sufficient standard to support a 20 team tournament. And the argument that the minnows improve through being able to play in the world cup simply doesn't seem to be sustained - we end up with the same old teams finishing last in their groups having lost by cricket scores to everyone. Anyone for Namibia!!

And on the attractiveness of a match - so as an example Georgia vs Portugal is unlikely to be a big draw where-ever it sits in the schedule. But it is certainly a sustainable argument that it may be more attractive as the only game on a Monday evening (if you want to watch a match that day you've got no choice) rather than the first game of three on a Saturday afternoon.

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #82 on: September 12, 2023, 01:13:36 PM »
In terms of direct influence on the game, in football (which is typically lower scoring that rugby) the effect is actually more likely to be game-changing.


Unless it is the goalkeeper, I don't agree on this point.

In football, it is relatively straight forward to reorganise the team following the sending off of an outfield player. In rugby union it can be very difficult. If you lose any forward, your scrum is going to be ineffective unless you replace one of your backs with another forward (indeed that is mandatory for the front row). If you are a back down, you're effectively playing six players against seven which is worse than nine against ten. Worse, if you lose your fly half, you have lost the person who is running the team and probably your best goal kicker too.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #83 on: September 12, 2023, 01:14:34 PM »
It’s a done deal and there’s no use moaning about it.
As an England fan I should be happy with the situation - but unless people keep moaning about it the rugby authorities simply won't change their bonkers approach.

Perhaps if people were moaning about it more when the 2019 tournament was under way they wouldn't have made the draw for this tournament in Dec 2020!!!

If we (and by that I mean the entire rugby community) don't keep moaning about it momentum will mean that we will suddenly find the pools for the 2027 world cup being drawn in Dec 2024 based on rankings for 1st Jan 2024 (yup that's right, using rankings for just 4 months away to dictate pools for a tournament 4 years away).

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #84 on: September 12, 2023, 01:17:56 PM »
Unless it is the goalkeeper, I don't agree on this point.

In football, it is relatively straight forward to reorganise the team following the sending off of an outfield player. In rugby union it can be very difficult. If you lose any forward, your scrum is going to be ineffective unless you replace one of your backs with another forward (indeed that is mandatory for the front row). If you are a back down, you're effectively playing six players against seven which is worse than nine against ten. Worse, if you lose your fly half, you have lost the person who is running the team and probably your best goal kicker too.
I agree and it is actually worse than that.

Go down to 14 players and when there is a set piece scrum 9 players on each side are sucked into one place and you are effectively 6 vs 5 stretched across the entire pitch.

And in football, even if it is a goalkeeper, you can make a substitution - if you have no subs left then almost by definition it will be towards the end of the game.

The issue is rugby is exemplified by the notion that even for a 10 min sin-bin it is a massive achievement if the team with 14 players doesn't concede.

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #85 on: September 12, 2023, 01:28:04 PM »
As an England fan I should be happy with the situation - but unless people keep moaning about it the rugby authorities simply won't change their bonkers approach.

Perhaps if people were moaning about it more when the 2019 tournament was under way they wouldn't have made the draw for this tournament in Dec 2020!!!

If we (and by that I mean the entire rugby community) don't keep moaning about it momentum will mean that we will suddenly find the pools for the 2027 world cup being drawn in Dec 2024 based on rankings for 1st Jan 2024 (yup that's right, using rankings for just 4 months away to dictate pools for a tournament 4 years away).
The time for moaning about the draw for this World Cup on this forum is past. We are all aware of your views and we all agree with them (I think). If we knew for a fact that the president of World Rugby was reading this thread, it might be different, but I am sure he is not.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #86 on: September 12, 2023, 01:53:25 PM »
The time for moaning about the draw for this World Cup on this forum is past. We are all aware of your views and we all agree with them (I think). If we knew for a fact that the president of World Rugby was reading this thread, it might be different, but I am sure he is not.
Nope because unless people continue to moan about it on every forum the rugby authorities will simply fail to fix the problem ... just as they didn't after the 2019 world cup. and the 2015 one, and the 2011 one ...

People talking about it anywhere and everywhere amplifies the message. And given that the authorities seem to be particularly tin-eared on this that message needs to be turned up to 11.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #87 on: September 12, 2023, 02:17:26 PM »
What deliberate stuff? The bits and pieces that ball-carriers can do to cause injury are already policed - leading elbows, straight-arm fends etc.
I'm not talking about overt would play from the ball carrier.

What I am talking about is deliberately trying to ensure that the tackler is at risk of a card when entering a tackle, by acting to maximise the tiniest bit of shoulder contact (for example) with the ball carriers head. This seems to me to be very similar to the trailing leg in football - a tactic that can be easily coached to maximise the likelihood of the opponent being penalised.

And, of course, the best way of doing this as a ball carrier it to lower upper body as you enter a tackle, which seems increasingly common. Hard not to think that perhaps that lowering of upper body isn't just about the best way to ride a tackle, but the best way to ensure that the tackler makes contact with the head, which is more positioned lower and further forward.

And I agree that the safest tackle is when the ball carrier stands up and the tackler goes low, but surely the most risky is when both ball carrier and tackler go low as both are then leading with head and shoulders.

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #88 on: September 12, 2023, 07:34:48 PM »
Nope because unless people continue to moan about it on every forum the rugby authorities will simply fail to fix the problem ... just as they didn't after the 2019 world cup. and the 2015 one, and the 2011 one ...

People talking about it anywhere and everywhere amplifies the message. And given that the authorities seem to be particularly tin-eared on this that message needs to be turned up to 11.
This is not the thread to do it on. Start a new one.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #89 on: September 12, 2023, 07:39:39 PM »
Tom Curry gets a two game ban for something that was essentially accidental.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/66785811

On the other hand, Kriel in RSA v Scotland doesn't get a card of any sort, for a very similar event.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 65801
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #90 on: September 12, 2023, 07:48:30 PM »
Tom Curry gets a two game ban for something that was essentially accidental.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/66785811

On the other hand, Kriel in RSA v Scotland doesn't get a card of any sort, for a very similar event.

And that the following applies:
'The independent disciplinary committee imposed a ban of three matches on the flanker - but that is reduced to two games if he completes the World Rugby coaching programme on tackling', seems to emphasise that they don't see it as fully intentional.


Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14722
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #91 on: September 12, 2023, 10:27:13 PM »
I'm not talking about overt would play from the ball carrier.

If the tackle is low it would have to be very overt.

Quote
What I am talking about is deliberately trying to ensure that the tackler is at risk of a card when entering a tackle, by acting to maximise the tiniest bit of shoulder contact (for example) with the ball carriers head.

And if the tackler is entering the tackle area low, and the ball-carrier dips into the contact that's already identified as mitigation and takes the burden off the tackler. Would there be mistakes, probably, but on the off-chance that would happen, with the potential to suffer significant injury yourself, I can't see that happening.

Quote
This seems to me to be very similar to the trailing leg in football - a tactic that can be easily coached to maximise the likelihood of the opponent being penalised.

Except that the trailing leg gets you two minutes of a physio pretending to treat you whilst you roll around on the floor, and then a penalty, whereas deliberately trying to put your head in the vicinity of fourteen or fifteen stone channeled through the point of a shoulder gets you concussion and early onset dementia.

Quote
And, of course, the best way of doing this as a ball carrier it to lower upper body as you enter a tackle, which seems increasingly common.

People are entering the contact with lower hips because the counter to lower tackles is to drop the weight  and lead with the upper arm trying to bump the tackle off - bulky second-rows and props have been doing it for years, although I'd agree it does seem to be spreading, particularly outside of the professional leagues. This is good, it's a sign that the tackles are going in lower.

Quote
Hard not to think that perhaps that lowering of upper body isn't just about the best way to ride a tackle, but the best way to ensure that the tackler makes contact with the head, which is more positioned lower and further forward.

No, you lower your body over the tackle and drive the arm down into the oncoming shoulder - you try to keep your head will out of the way.

Quote
And I agree that the safest tackle is when the ball carrier stands up and the tackler goes low, but surely the most risky is when both ball carrier and tackler go low as both are then leading with head and shoulders.

It's not more or less hazardous than when both go upright, but it is significantly less common - it isn't currently resulting in significant numbers of head injuries, and therefore doesn't need addressing in the same way. Law of unintended consequences, and all that, it might need to be looked at if it starts to become an issue, but the current situation needed to change.

Tom Curry gets a two game ban for something that was essentially accidental.

I would say 'careless', but I'd agree it wasn't malicious or deliberate.

Quote
On the other hand, Kriel in RSA v Scotland doesn't get a card of any sort, for a very similar event.

What's even more concerning is, at the moment, I've still not seen anything to suggest that he's even been cited after the match (which, for those not familiar with rugby, is a normal process for incidents which are missed by the officials during the game).

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #92 on: September 13, 2023, 09:24:02 AM »

I would say 'careless', but I'd agree it wasn't malicious or deliberate.

What's even more concerning is, at the moment, I've still not seen anything to suggest that he's even been cited after the match (which, for those not familiar with rugby, is a normal process for incidents which are missed by the officials during the game).


What concerns me is two things. Firstly, the punishment doesn't seem to fit the crime. Secondly, the crime is being policed inconsistently.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 65801
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #93 on: September 13, 2023, 11:48:37 AM »
The rankings after the first round of matches

SqueakyVoice

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2555
  • from God, "We apologise for the inconvenience."
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #94 on: September 13, 2023, 09:15:02 PM »
Nick Evans' article has a couple of interesting  points.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/sep/10/george-ford-masterclass-and-defensive-organisation-bode-well-for-england
Quote
whenever you lose a forward to a red card, it affects your systems from an attacking point of view. You have one less forward spread across the field so there’s an adaptation on the shapes you need to run. What Ford did brilliantly is that he twigged so early on that forwards have a certain energy level and they expend it because they need to scrum, they need to execute the lineout, maul, tackle, carry and ruck and when there’s only seven of them it’s an extra five to 10 minutes’ work, which is hard graft.
...
I loved working with Kev(...in Sinfield). As a human being he’s inspirational but the relationships he has with the players is fantastic. His knowledge as well – coming from rugby league he has an ability to transfer his thoughts and principles on defence from a league background
Has been delayed here (quite extensively).
Point 2 about a rugby league player sharing his experience with Union player reminded me that there are Sean Edwards and Andy Farrell had earlier league experiences and both seem to dominate Rugby Union as coaches now a day. Is Rugby league any good, or am I just missing it?
I've only ever watched a few minutes and never found any of it exciting or interesting  any thoughts?

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5839
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #95 on: September 14, 2023, 08:19:35 AM »
Regarding the Kriel incident I think the argument is that the initial contact was chest on ball and that the head to head contact was minimal and without force. I can see that.

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #96 on: September 14, 2023, 08:42:05 AM »
Regarding the Kriel incident I think the argument is that the initial contact was chest on ball and that the head to head contact was minimal and without force. I can see that.

The head to head contact didn't look minimal.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14722
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #97 on: September 14, 2023, 09:22:30 AM »
Is Rugby league any good, or am I just missing it? I've only ever watched a few minutes and never found any of it exciting or interesting  any thoughts?

It's a horses-for-courses sort of a judgement - I prefer to watch and play Union, it's for me a more tactically and strategically varied game. League takes out most of the set pieces to any real extent, and focuses on trying to create line breaks - there is much less tactical kicking, the ball is in play for longer and more regularly. It requires an even higher level of fitness across the team and there are fewer distinctions between the skill-sets of the positions.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5839
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #98 on: September 14, 2023, 09:29:17 AM »
The head to head contact didn't look minimal.

It seemed more cheek to cheek from what I saw. I think that is part of the problem that there didn't seem to be any different angles to help make a judgement from.

SqueakyVoice

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2555
  • from God, "We apologise for the inconvenience."
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #99 on: September 15, 2023, 08:21:25 PM »
Outsider,

For me, the contest for the ball is a lot more important (in Union not League). Whenever I did see a bit of league  after a tackle the ball holder would stand up and heel it back to the next player. Any tackle  in Union would have a Ruck and that was (almost always) attacked by the defenders.

I was going to start moaning about the rule changes limiting a lot acontest event (line outs and scrums mainly?), but I should probably stop.