Author Topic: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023  (Read 13942 times)

jeremyp

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #150 on: October 03, 2023, 05:20:38 PM »

I think Scotland are probably the 5th best team in the world as in the rankings, but also as in the rankings there's a big gap between 4th and 5th.

This is something I was going to bring up.

Scotland are fifth in the rankings, but the gap between New Zealand at 4 and Scotland at 5 is 4.26. That's larger than the gap between Scotland at 5 and Argentina at 9.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #151 on: October 08, 2023, 11:11:20 AM »
That there is a good chance that England will make the semi finals of the World Cup having performed as they did last night while 2 of France, New Zealand, Ireland, and South Africa won't is laughable.

jeremyp

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #152 on: October 08, 2023, 12:20:39 PM »
That there is a good chance that England will make the semi finals of the World Cup having performed as they did last night while 2 of France, New Zealand, Ireland, and South Africa won't is laughable.

I don't think England will reach the semi final if they play again as they did yesterday.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #153 on: October 08, 2023, 03:29:44 PM »
Very enjoyable match between Japan and Argentina with Argentina victorious

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67046362

Nearly Sane

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #154 on: October 08, 2023, 07:43:30 PM »
And another enjoyable match with Tonga and Romania with special moment when Surugiu scored a try in his last match for Romania.

Outrider

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #155 on: October 08, 2023, 09:58:58 PM »
Great final game of the pool stages between Fiji and Portugal. Well deserved win for Portugal (not just for their play tonight, but for their attitude through their other pool games) and the best thing is that Australia still go out :)

Shame Scotland will go down in history as also going out in the group stage, but here's hoping that people will remember the circumstances.

O.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #156 on: October 09, 2023, 07:48:11 PM »
Rankings after the end of the group games
 Big move from Portugal over the matches.

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #157 on: October 14, 2023, 06:43:26 PM »
Argentina beat Wales who seemed to switch off after going 10-0 up

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67111823
« Last Edit: October 14, 2023, 07:11:06 PM by Nearly Sane »

jeremyp

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #158 on: October 14, 2023, 07:19:16 PM »
Argentina beat Wales who seemed to switch off after going 10-0 up

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67111823

Can't believe you fixed that typo. I had a great response post.

Anyway, I'm not totally surprised. Argentina had no matches in the run up to the RWC, so when they played England, they were pretty rusty. They are getting better.

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Outrider

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #159 on: October 14, 2023, 10:23:40 PM »
Can't believe you fixed that typo. I had a great response post.

Anyway, I'm not totally surprised. Argentina had no matches in the run up to the RWC, so when they played England, they were pretty rusty. They are getting better.

Having watched the All Blacks hold out Ireland tonight, I can't see that they're getting better anywhere near quickly enough to worry New Zealand. (Weird that their semi-final is on a Friday?)

I think England will get past Fiji tomorrow, not massively but comfortably, but then I though Ireland had the measure of New Zealand before tonight. France - South Africa is too close to call, but Dupont being back for the French probably just gives them the edge, for me.

O.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #160 on: October 15, 2023, 09:44:10 AM »
Having watched the All Blacks hold out Ireland tonight, I can't see that they're getting better anywhere near quickly enough to worry New Zealand. (Weird that their semi-final is on a Friday?)

I think England will get past Fiji tomorrow, not massively but comfortably, but then I though Ireland had the measure of New Zealand before tonight. France - South Africa is too close to call, but Dupont being back for the French probably just gives them the edge, for me.

O.
You seem to have the All Blacks playing New Zealand in the semi final?



jeremyp

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #161 on: October 15, 2023, 11:00:04 AM »
Having watched the All Blacks hold out Ireland tonight, I can't see that they're getting better anywhere near quickly enough to worry New Zealand. (Weird that their semi-final is on a Friday?)
No, of course not.
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I think England will get past Fiji tomorrow, not massively but comfortably, but then I thought Ireland had the measure of New Zealand before tonight. France - South Africa is too close to call, but Dupont being back for the French probably just gives them the edge, for me.

O.

After watching England against Samoa, I'm not so sure. Samoa ran them ragged.

And the selection policy is bizarre. Our best fly half is on the bench and our second best is playing at fullback. Frankly, the England captain isn't good enough, anymore, to get into the side.
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Maeght

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #162 on: October 15, 2023, 12:32:55 PM »
You seem to have the All Blacks playing New Zealand in the semi final?

No. The post was about Argentina.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #163 on: October 15, 2023, 01:49:51 PM »
No. The post was about Argentina.

I guessed you may have meant that but what you wrote was

'Having watched the All Blacks hold out Ireland tonight, I can't see that they're getting better anywhere near quickly enough to worry New Zealand.'

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #164 on: October 15, 2023, 02:04:37 PM »
Anyway, brilliant match with New Zealand and Ireland.

Maeght

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #165 on: October 15, 2023, 02:05:33 PM »
I guessed you may have meant that but what you wrote was

'Having watched the All Blacks hold out Ireland tonight, I can't see that they're getting better anywhere near quickly enough to worry New Zealand.'

I didn't write it, but the post was in reply to the jeremyp's comment about Argentina getting better, so the they in the comment you quoted is Argentina. I.e. it is actually I can't see Argentina getting better quickly enough to worry New Zealand.

Yes, was an excellent match.

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #166 on: October 15, 2023, 02:20:56 PM »
I didn't write it, but the post was in reply to the jeremyp's comment about Argentina getting better, so the they in the comment you quoted is Argentina. I.e. it is actually I can't see Argentina getting better quickly enough to worry New Zealand.

Yes, was an excellent match.
Sorry, what do you mean you didn't write it?

Maeght

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #167 on: October 15, 2023, 02:24:29 PM »
Sorry, what do you mean you didn't write it?

It was an Outrider post.

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #168 on: October 15, 2023, 02:28:00 PM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #169 on: October 15, 2023, 06:28:44 PM »

jeremyp

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #170 on: October 15, 2023, 06:50:11 PM »
I guessed you may have meant that but what you wrote was

'Having watched the All Blacks hold out Ireland tonight, I can't see that they're getting better anywhere near quickly enough to worry New Zealand.'

"They" in this case obviously referred to Argentina. When you take it in context with my post quoted above, I'm not sure what the problem is.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #171 on: October 16, 2023, 09:22:14 AM »
I think a lot of people thought this just might be the world cup where the northern hemisphere sides came to the fore - particularly Ireland and France. But yet again when 6 nations sides come up against rugby championship sides the latter are better. We saw three 6 nations/rugby championship match ups over the weekend and the 6 nations sides lost all three.

And I cannot see England coming close to matching south africa, so we'll probably have another all southern hemisphere final.

The 6 nations teams really do need to have a root and branch reappraisal of how they can, frankly, get better. Currently, and for decades, they've simple not been good enough. And at the heart of the matter is the 6 nations itself - a tournament played year after year between the same (compared to the world's best) second ranked sides. How is that helping the likes of Ireland, France, Wales etc to develop. It isn't as we've seen yet again when they come up against southern hemisphere sides in matches that actually matter.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2023, 09:28:45 AM by ProfessorDavey »

jeremyp

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #172 on: October 16, 2023, 09:30:43 AM »
I think a lot of people thought this just might be the world cup where the northern hemisphere sides came to the fore - particularly Ireland and France. But yet again when 6 nations sides come up against rugby championship sides the latter are better. We saw three 6 nations/rugby championship match ups over the weekend and the 6 nations sides lost all three.

France lost by one point. Ireland lost by four points. Both of those matches could have gone the other way quite easily. New Zealand, Argentina and RSA all lost matches to NH sides in the pool rounds.

I don't think these results support your thesis as much as you would like.
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Outrider

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #173 on: October 16, 2023, 09:39:51 AM »

Between Ireland-New Zealand and France-South Africa, the weekend's rugby was an absolute treat. Personally, of my four preferred winners, only the least preferred (England) got through, but you can't complain when the winners put in the performances they did.

England-Fiji I wasn't that bothered about - England is my second team (I'm a Scotland fan for rugby), but as neither Fiji nor England seemed capable of winning the semi-final it wouldn't have been bad for Fiji to get through and draw some more World Rugby attention to the South Sea Islands.

I thought it was Ireland's year to go further, but the All Blacks were outstanding (as Mark Pougatch put in in the ITV commentary, you don't ever get a 'bad' All Blacks side).

Wales I preferred against Argentina just for the Northern Hemisphere/Home Countries ties.

The really disappointing one, though, was France going out to South Africa. In sport normally I have my preferred team, then whoever is playing France is next, but with Rugby I just have to dislike South Africa. And France have been playing absolutely delightful rugby in the past couple of years, too.

So I'll be looking for a silver fern for the final, I guess.

I think a lot of people thought this just might be the world cup where the northern hemisphere sides came to the fore - particularly Ireland and France. But yet again when 6 nations sides come up against rugby championship sides the latter are better.

I don't think that they were noticeably better - the finest of fine margins were the difference this weekend. The bounce of the ball, here and there - Ireland were held up over the line by an individual moment of absolute brilliance from Barrett, but a few chip throughs that bounced ever so slightly different, a few desperate off-loads from New Zealand that stuck that on another day wouldn't and it could have easily been different.

Similarly with France and South Africa, they were so close all through - a different referee in that game with a very slightly different interpretation of (say) the scrum and South Africa could easily have lost by a point or two instead of winning by a point.

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And I cannot see England coming close to matching south africa, so we'll probably have another all southern hemisphere final.

Can't argue with that - and you certainly can't see Argentina or England raising their game enough to win both remaining matches.

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The 6 nations teams really do need to have a route and branch reappraisal of how they can, frankly, get better.

Ireland and France are the top 2 ranked teams in the world, and the six nations has five of the top 8, with only Italy below Australia and Argentina. South Africa and New Zealand are excellent, at the moment, but Australia and Argentina are not on the same level as the mainstream Six Nations sides, let alone the top 2.

Quote
Currently, and for decades, they've simple not been good enough.

Historically, I'd agree, but currently I wouldn't. The trick for the northern sides is to build on this current status and make sure it's the start of something, not the peak.

Quote
And at the heart of the matter is the 6 nations itself - a tournament played year after year between the same (compared to the world's best) second ranked sides. How is that helping the likes of Ireland, France, Wales etc to develop. It isn't as we've seen yet again when they come up against southern hemisphere sides in matches that actually matter.

South Africa and New Zealand play each other, and then Australia (who have been fading for a few years) and Argentina, and yet they maintain those standards - the problem doesn't really lie at the international level, it lies at the club level and at the cultural level where rugby struggles to compete against sports like football in the northern hemisphere in a way that it doesn't in South Africa and New Zealand (but does in Argentina, or where it's losing out to Rugby League in Austrialia).

O.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #174 on: October 16, 2023, 09:46:04 AM »
France lost by one point. Ireland lost by four points.
But they both lost.

Both of those matches could have gone the other way quite easily.
But they didn't did they - a reasonable argument if there are loads of examples of Ireland, Wales, France etc beating the rugby championship sides across the years to triumph in the world cup. But there aren't are there. The truism being that the world cup is a competition where the top sides from the NH come up against the opt sides from the SH and then the latter win the tournament. Sure England have won the competition once, but that's it and the tournament has been going since 1987. The NH sides simply aren't good enough.

New Zealand, Argentina and RSA all lost matches to NH sides in the pool rounds.
In matches which clearly had no bearing on the sharp end of the tournament, as all three of those sides are in the semi-finals and Wales, France, Ireland and Scotland aren't, and England got there by beating a second tier side not in the rugby championship. In matches that count the rugby championship sides are too good for the 6 nations sides.

I don't think these results support your thesis as much as you would like.
What that the semi finals will involve three out of the four rugby championship sides, all of whom knocked out a 6 nations side in the quarters, while just on 6 nations side has made it, and did so without having to beat a rugby championship side in the knockout phase. I think the results support my thesis very well and your argument seems to be that had the results gone another way we might have had more NH sides in the semis - but that is wishful thinking - the reality is that they didn't and we don't.