Author Topic: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023  (Read 13959 times)

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #175 on: October 16, 2023, 10:33:18 AM »
Between Ireland-New Zealand and France-South Africa, the weekend's rugby was an absolute treat.
I agree - both were amazing matches.

I don't think that they were noticeably better - the finest of fine margins were the difference this weekend. The bounce of the ball, here and there - Ireland were held up over the line by an individual moment of absolute brilliance from Barrett, but a few chip throughs that bounced ever so slightly different, a few desperate off-loads from New Zealand that stuck that on another day wouldn't and it could have easily been different.

Similarly with France and South Africa, they were so close all through - a different referee in that game with a very slightly different interpretation of (say) the scrum and South Africa could easily have lost by a point or two instead of winning by a point.
That would be all fine if there were plenty of examples where it went the other way. But it doesn't - the SH sides simply seem to get the job done against NH sides when push comes to shove, and ultimately you have to accept that isn't due to good fortune, but because they are better.

And don't forget that SA played 10 mins with 14 players and NZ played 20 mins with 14 players and they still both won.

Ireland and France are the top 2 ranked teams in the world
They won't be for long though will they - if they are really the top two in the world you'd expect them to be competing in the final rather than being dumped out at the quarter final stage.

, and the six nations has five of the top 8,
I'm not convinced that the ranking works well with comparing SH with NH, simply because the only time they actually play each other in properly competitive fixtures is once every four years at the world cup. So the rankings are good at telling you which 6 nations sides are better than which other 6 nations sides, and which rugby championship sides are better than which other rugby championship sides, but not good at telling you whether NZ are better than Ireland. The exception are the rankings immediately after the world cup, which I think will see NZ and SA one and two, not Ireland and France.

but Australia and Argentina are not on the same level as the mainstream Six Nations sides, let alone the top 2.
Agree on Australia - they are poor at the moment and finished bottom of the rugby championship, but it is hard to argue that Argentina are not as good as the mainstream 6 nations sides as they've just dumped one of those, Wales, out of the world cup.

South Africa and New Zealand play each other, and then Australia (who have been fading for a few years) and Argentina, and yet they maintain those standards - the problem doesn't really lie at the international level, it lies at the club level and at the cultural level where rugby struggles to compete against sports like football in the northern hemisphere in a way that it doesn't in South Africa and New Zealand (but does in Argentina, or where it's losing out to Rugby League in Austrialia).
I think the problem is just as much at international level as club level. The four SH sides get to play each other every year in a competitive tournament, which inevitably will involve the best side in the world (as the SH pretty well always win the world cup). So they constantly have the opportunity of the best playing the best. The 6 nations is a second class tournament in comparison. Win the rugby championship and you'll be competitive for the world cup, win the 6 nations ... well not so much.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2023, 10:35:54 AM by ProfessorDavey »

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #176 on: October 16, 2023, 10:35:43 AM »
But they both lost.
By very small margins.

Quote
But they didn't did they - a reasonable argument if there are loads of examples of Ireland, Wales, France etc beating the rugby championship sides across the years to triumph in the world cup.
But your thesis isn't that the NH is historically inferior to the SH, it is that they are inferior now. The evidence isn't there - or if it is, it's marginal.

Quote
In matches which clearly had no bearing on the sharp end of the tournament
They still mattered, especially the Ireland - RSA one.

This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #177 on: October 16, 2023, 10:38:43 AM »
The evidence isn't there - or if it is, it's marginal.
Err, are you for real JP - the evidence is staring us in the face. World Cup semis - NZ, SA, Argentina (all SH sides who knocked out 6 nations sides) and England (who knocked out a second tier side to get there).

And I suspect by this time next week we will be looking at yet another all SH final, and yet another SH winner.

What more evidence do you need.

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #178 on: October 16, 2023, 10:43:02 AM »
Err, are you for real JP - the evidence is staring us in the face. World Cup semis
Oh FFS do you understand how sport works?

Two of those QF matches were won by less than a single score. These were not SH sides dominating NH sides, they were even matches that just both happened to be won by the SH side.

Quote
And I suspect by this time next week we will be looking at yet another all SH final, and yet another SH winner.

That's true because the two good NH sides both lost very close matches.

Quote
What more evidence do you need.
Something more statistically significant than the results of two rugby matches.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #179 on: October 16, 2023, 10:54:50 AM »
Oh FFS do you understand how sport works?
I do - if you lose even by a single point, you still lose.

Two of those QF matches were won by less than a single score. These were not SH sides dominating NH sides, they were even matches that just both happened to be won by the SH side.
True, but apparently France and Ireland are ranked higher that SA and NZ; the tournament is being played in France, so they had home advantage and Ireland were still playing in their back yard rather than on the other side of the world. France played against 14 players for 10 mins, Ireland played against 14 players for a quarter of the match. Surely all those factors should point to comfortable victories for Ireland and France - but they both lost. Why? for the simple reason that SA and NZ were better.

Something more statistically significant than the results of two rugby matches.
OK - let's have some stats.

World Cup winners:
SH - 8 (likely 9 in a couple of weeks time)
NH - 1

Knock-out stage victories between rugby championship vs 6 nations match-ups (oh and this includes Argentina)
SH - 27
NH - 9

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #180 on: October 16, 2023, 10:56:06 AM »
Something more statistically significant than the results of two rugby matches.
Three - Argentina beat Wales too.

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #181 on: October 16, 2023, 11:03:43 AM »
I do - if you lose even by a single point, you still lose.
True, but apparently France and Ireland are ranked higher that SA and NZ; the tournament is being played in France, so they had home advantage and Ireland were still playing in their back yard rather than on the other side of the world. France played against 14 players for 10 mins, Ireland played against 14 players for a quarter of the match. Surely all those factors should point to comfortable victories for Ireland and France - but they both lost. Why? for the simple reason that SA and NZ were better.
OK - let's have some stats.

World Cup winners:
SH - 8 (likely 9 in a couple of weeks time)
NH - 1

Knock-out stage victories between rugby championship vs 6 nations match-ups (oh and this includes Argentina)
SH - 27
NH - 9

Nobody is disputing that the SH have been historically dominant. Your claim, however, is that the QF results show that it is continuing, but it's based on the results of two matches there were very close.

You're a scientist. Do you know what "statistically significant" means?
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #182 on: October 16, 2023, 11:06:45 AM »
Three - Argentina beat Wales too.

Wales is not a top tier NH side. Neither is England.

The top two sides in the NH are Ireland and France. Everybody else is a long way behind. The top two sides in the SH are South Africa and New Zealand. Everybody else is a long way behind.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #183 on: October 16, 2023, 11:25:11 AM »
Wales is not a top tier NH side.
Nor are Argentina a top tier SH side - but when they came up against each other in a match that mattered Argentina won.

The top two sides in the NH are Ireland and France. Everybody else is a long way behind. The top two sides in the SH are South Africa and New Zealand. Everybody else is a long way behind.
And when those teams came up against each other in a match that mattered the two SH sides won. Even though the NH sides had variously home advantage, not playing on the other side of the world, nominal higher ranking and playing against 14 players for 10 or 20 minutes of the game. Yet the SH sides still won.

It is pretty hard to come to any other conclusion than NZ and SA are simply better.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #184 on: October 16, 2023, 11:39:40 AM »
Nobody is disputing that the SH have been historically dominant.
And they still are - three of the four rugby championship teams are in the semi finals (all of whom beat 6 nations sides to get there). Just one of the 6 nations sides are in the semis, and they got through by beating a second tier rugby nation, rather than a rugby championship side.

Your claim, however, is that the QF results show that it is continuing, but it's based on the results of two matches there were very close.
Three matches, not two. The matches were close (well actually the Argentina/Wales match wasn't that close in the end), but the NH sides still lost all of them, despite many factors being in their favour (home or close to home advantage, nominal higher ranking, playing against 14 players for a chunk of the match in the case of France and Ireland).

You really are like an ostrich with your head in the sand - what happened over the weekend demonstrates that NH rugby continues to have a major problem matching the SH sides. This isn't just historical, it if continuing through yet another world cup tournament.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2023, 11:44:35 AM by ProfessorDavey »

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14722
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #185 on: October 16, 2023, 11:45:37 AM »
That would be all fine if there were plenty of examples where it went the other way. But it doesn't - the SH sides simply seem to get the job done against NH sides when push comes to shove, and ultimately you have to accept that isn't due to good fortune, but because they are better.

Historically that's been the case, at the moment I don't there's much in it, and arguably there's more breadth of good play in the Northern Hemisphere with a spread of abilities between Ireland/France down to Italy, whereas there's South Africa/New Zealand and then a gap down to Australia and Argentina. The test is going to be are there still going to be competitive northern hemisphere sides in three, four, five, ten years time. We expect this level from the Southern Hemisphere - Australia's below par performance is as much of an aberration as France and Ireland being competitive, historically speaking.

Quote
And don't forget that SA played 10 mins with 14 players and NZ played 20 mins with 14 players and they still both won.

New Zealand's card, though, were for professional fouls in attempting to stop try-scoring opportunities - some could argue it's that cynical edge that gives them an advantage, but I can't be confident that one of the more shrewd Ireland players wouldn't have taken the same risk. At that level they practice playing with a man down, knowing that it's a risk of the game. Ireland got a penalty try for the second infringement, and turned their numerical advantage in the first into a try.

France's inability to maximise their numerical benefit is perhaps a little more telling - as you suggest, the Northern Hemisphere sides are not used to being favourites in these pinch matches, and haven't developed the mentality to step it up a notch in those circumstances, to really punish when it's called for.

Quote
They won't be for long though will they - if they are really the top two in the world you'd expect them to be competing in the final rather than being dumped out at the quarter final stage.

I don't think it's as clear-cut as that - you'd expect them to win four or five out of six - what they need is to make sure that one of those is at the sharp end, and I suspect that's a combination of mentality and luck - the luck you can't control, but the mentality will come from playing at the sharp end more consistently.

Quote
I'm not convinced that the ranking works well with comparing SH with NH, simply because the only time they actually play each other in properly competitive fixtures is once every four years at the world cup.

I don't think you can watch an All Blacks game - any All Blacks game - and suggest that they don't give everything every time they pull on that shirt. Part of what makes them the legends they are is that you can't give them an inch, ever. South Africa breeds rugby players that, individually, are always physical, aggressive, domineering, it's part and parcel of the fabric of their game - that doesn't get let go for 'lesser' matches. You could argue that northern and southern hemisphere sides don't play each other often enough, perhaps, but you I don't see that you can suggest that matches outside of the world cup are noticeably less competitive.

Quote
So the rankings are good at telling you which 6 nations sides are better than which other 6 nations sides, and which rugby championship sides are better than which other rugby championship sides, but not good at telling you whether NZ are better than Ireland. The exception are the rankings immediately after the world cup, which I think will see NZ and SA one and two, not Ireland and France.

South Africa have six ranking points to make up to catch Ireland, which I'm not sure is mathematically possible given the timeframe the rankings are taken over.

Quote
Agree on Australia - they are poor at the moment and finished bottom of the rugby championship, but it is hard to argue that Argentina are not as good as the mainstream 6 nations sides as they've just dumped one of those, Wales, out of the world cup.

In a hard-fought, close contest that only got away from Wales (who didn't play to their capabilities) when they had to chase the game at the end, and Wales are a distant fourth in the standards of the six nations right now. Argentina would not be out of place competing against the six nations teams (and, from the little I've seen of them, didn't play to their best either), but they would be in the lower half of it right now.

Quote
I think the problem is just as much at international level as club level. The four SH sides get to play each other every year in a competitive tournament, which inevitably will involve the best side in the world (as the SH pretty well always win the world cup). So they constantly have the opportunity of the best playing the best. The 6 nations is a second class tournament in comparison. Win the rugby championship and you'll be competitive for the world cup, win the 6 nations ... well not so much.

It's a development problem - South Africa and New Zealand have a wealth of talent in each position, the northern hemisphere teams historically have always had maybe four or five world class players and a clutch of eager journeymen. It's only in recent years that northern hemisphere teams (led by France, but Ireland and England to a lesser extent) have regularly produced not just those world class players but a layer of depth behind it. South Africa and New Zealand have enough players of that capability in their leagues that the players need less coaching and tactical guidance, so when the 'second string' come in they don't suffer that drop in performance and (in England's case) they aren't a susceptible to questionable management practices.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #186 on: October 16, 2023, 11:49:18 AM »
Nor are Argentina a top tier SH side - but when they came up against each other in a match that mattered Argentina won.
And when those teams came up against each other in a match that mattered the two SH sides won.

But both matches were even and could have gone either way.

Why are you having trouble understanding that?

This is another of your "I'm always right" crusades isn't it.

I'll tell you what. I'm going to stop arguing with you until after you have demonstrated that you understand the concept of statistical significance and why you feel you can ignore its implications when your evidence includes just two rugby matches.

This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #187 on: October 16, 2023, 11:58:30 AM »
But both matches were even and could have gone either way.
But all THREE of them didn't.

Why are you having trouble understanding that?
Because it doesn't  matter that they were close, as in so many previous tournaments the SH sides are just that bit better - they get the job done.

This is another of your "I'm always right" crusades isn't it.
There's no crusade here merely a recognition that what has happened in world cup after world cup is continuing to happen. And if the NH attitude is a complacent 'well it was close, could have gone either way' SH sides are going to continue to win match up after match up with NH sides and continue to win world cup after world cup.

I'll tell you what. I'm going to stop arguing with you until after you have demonstrated that you understand the concept of statistical significance and why you feel you can ignore its implications when your evidence includes just two rugby matches.
I've ignore this because as a scientist I recognise that the notion of 'statistical significance' when you are talking about just three games has no meaning. I think the 8 (likely 9 in a couple of weeks time) to 1 world cup wins and 27 to 9 rugby championship vs 6 nations world cup knock out stage victories may well be.

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #188 on: October 16, 2023, 12:04:15 PM »
But all THREE of them didn't.
Because it doesn't  matter that they were close, as in so many previous tournaments the SH sides are just that bit better - they get the job done.
There's no crusade here merely a recognition that what has happened in world cup after world cup is continuing to happen. And if the NH attitude is a complacent 'well it was close, could have gone either way' SH sides are going to continue to win match up after match up with NH sides and continue to win world cup after world cup.
I've ignore this because as a scientist I recognise that the notion of 'statistical significance' when you are talking about just three games has no meaning. I think the 8 (likely 9 in a couple of weeks time) to 1 world cup wins and 27 to 9 rugby championship vs 6 nations world cup knock out stage victories may well be.
I've stopped arguing with you until after you have demonstrated that you understand the concept of statistical significance and why you feel you can ignore its implications when your evidence includes just two rugby matches.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #189 on: October 16, 2023, 12:45:32 PM »
I've stopped arguing with you until after you have demonstrated that you understand the concept of statistical significance and why you feel you can ignore its implications when your evidence includes just two rugby matches.
Why are you continuing to disingenuously refer only to two matches when there were of course three over the weekend in which SH rugby championship sides beat nominally higher ranked 6 nation sides.

Also why are you banging on about statistical significance when I've already been quite clear that it has no place for such a small sample. However that doesn't change the fact that the pattern over many, many world cups of 6 nations sides coming up short when faced with SH rugby championship sides, continues in this world cup.

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #190 on: October 16, 2023, 01:25:29 PM »
Why are you continuing to disingenuously refer only to two matches when there were of course three
Why are you disingenuously referring to three matches when there were of course four?

Would you like to calculate the p-value and tell us if it meets the bar for statistical significance?
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #191 on: October 16, 2023, 04:42:21 PM »
Why are you disingenuously referring to three matches when there were of course four?
So not only are you being disingenuous, but also now quote-mining.

Why did you fail to include the final part of the sentence when you quoted me. For clarity the sentence was:

'Why are you continuing to disingenuously refer only to two matches when there were of course three over the weekend in which SH rugby championship sides beat nominally higher ranked 6 nation sides.'

Yet you missed out the part in bold.

There were exactly three matches over the weekend involving a rugby championship side playing a 6 nation side (Wales v Argentina; Ireland vs NZ and France vs SA). Not four, not two, but three.

SqueakyVoice

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2555
  • from God, "We apologise for the inconvenience."
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #192 on: October 16, 2023, 05:20:03 PM »
Quote from: jeremyp

And the selection policy is bizarre. Our best fly half is on the bench and our second best is playing at fullback. Frankly, the England captain isn't good enough, anymore, to get into the side.
I don't  think he's  ever been good enough to get into the (Eng) side. I'd stick with Courtney Lawes (despite injuries). (as a lock and not a flanker).

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #193 on: October 16, 2023, 07:34:05 PM »
So not only are you being disingenuous, but also now quote-mining.

Why did you fail to include the final part of the sentence when you quoted me. For clarity the sentence was:

'Why are you continuing to disingenuously refer only to two matches when there were of course three over the weekend in which SH rugby championship sides beat nominally higher ranked 6 nation sides.'

Yet you missed out the part in bold.

There were exactly three matches over the weekend involving a rugby championship side playing a 6 nation side (Wales v Argentina; Ireland vs NZ and France vs SA). Not four, not two, but three.

There were four matches over the weekend of which two were between top tier sides. You know, as a scientist, that it is incredibly dishonest to cherry pick the data as you do.

Have you worked out the p-value yet?  Does it meet the test for statistical significance?
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #194 on: October 16, 2023, 07:36:15 PM »
I don't  think he's  ever been good enough to get into the (Eng) side. I'd stick with Courtney Lawes (despite injuries). (as a lock and not a flanker).

I think that is a little bit unfair. He was a good fly half in 2019.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 65801
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #195 on: October 17, 2023, 07:46:07 AM »
There were four matches over the weekend of which two were between top tier sides. You know, as a scientist, that it is incredibly dishonest to cherry pick the data as you do.

Have you worked out the p-value yet?  Does it meet the test for statistical significance?
Is there a clear statement of the hypothesis?

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33307
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #196 on: October 17, 2023, 08:32:30 AM »
Is there a clear statement of the hypothesis?

The Southern hemisphere sides are better than the Northern hemisphere sides. PD claims this is true based on the QF results.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #197 on: October 17, 2023, 10:22:17 AM »
There were four matches over the weekend of which two were between top tier sides.
Oh dear, now you've started making stuff up.

Tier 1 rugby nations are defined as those that play in the 6 nations (England, France, Wales, Ireland, Scotland, Italy) or in the rugby championship (NZ, SA, Australia, Argentina).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67048489

'Tier one consists of the European teams who play in the Six Nations (England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, France and Italy), and the four who compete in the southern hemisphere's Rugby Championship (Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Argentina).'

So your claim that there were only two matches involving two tier 1 sides is demonstrably non-sense. There were three:
NZ vs Ireland
SA vs Wales
Wales vs Argentina

There was also a fourth match (England vs Fiji) which was between a tier 1 nation (England) and a tier 2 nation (Fiji).

And actually my claim was about matches involving a 6 nation team playing a rugby championship side - again there were three, not two, not four, but three. But the criteria are synonymous as tier 1 is defined as sides that play in either the 6 nation team or the rugby championship.

You know, as a scientist, that it is incredibly dishonest to cherry pick the data as you do.
I haven't cherry picked anything - I have used an external definition (regardless of whether tier 1 or 6 nations and rugby championship) and considered all the matches where a tier one SH side played a tier 1 NH side (or by my definition, which is effectively the same) a 6 nation team played a rugby championship side.

You on the other hand have made up stuff - a Jeremy P definition of a top tier side and also ignored stuff - the third relevant match, Wales vs Argentina.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17987
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #198 on: October 17, 2023, 10:40:22 AM »
The Southern hemisphere sides are better than the Northern hemisphere sides. PD claims this is true based on the QF results.
Let's be clear - I'm talking about top tier SH vs NH sides, so those that play in the 6 nations and rugby championship.

And given that in all three match ups of that nature over the weekend the SH side won it is hard to argue that they weren't better - actually despite a range of factors (playing at home or close to home, being nominally higher ranked, playing against 14 players for a part of the match) which should have favoured the NH side.

But the point is that this isn't a one off - this is the continuation of a pattern with has stretched pretty well uninterrupted since the world cup started in 1987. When the top SH sides and the top NH sides play each other in a tournament that matters (the world cup is the only time they play each other in a properly competitive format) the SH sides invariably come out on top.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2023, 10:56:07 AM by ProfessorDavey »

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14722
Re: Men's Rugby Union World Cup 2023
« Reply #199 on: October 17, 2023, 10:59:08 AM »
And given that in all three match ups of that nature over the weekend the SH side won it is hard to argue that they weren't better - actually despite a range of factors (playing at home or close to home, being nominally higher ranked, playing against 14 players for a part of the match) which would have favoured the NH side.

You could equally argue that the 'home advantage' actually added pressure to the French, and doesn't really represent much of a home advantage for, particularly, England (Ireland and Wales perhaps).

Quote
But the point is that this isn't a one off - this is the continuation of a pattern with has stretched pretty well uninterrupted since the world cup started in 1987.

It might be a continuation of that pattern, but the fact that there is so much discussion about how it's surprising that all three matches went the way of the SH sides suggests that perhaps it's not. We could be at the stage where the SH sides are not significantly better, as they have been in the past, but rather it was just the 'statistical aberration' of close sides separated by the bounce of the ball. In order to demonstrate that the NH sides now need to build on this and stay competitive - the SH status isn't built on one tournament, but rather on their consistent ability to operate at or near the top. The NH sides have periodically had one side or another have a peak, but rarely have they had two or three sides in the top five, rarely have they had two sides in realistic consideration for a major tournament.

Quote
When the top SH sides and the top NH sides play each other in a tournament that matters (the world cup is the only time they play each other in a properly competitive format) the SH sides invariably come out on top.

And it may be that the pressure of a tournament is playing a part, a legacy of that sense of the having been there and done it vs it being new territory, but I don't accept the notion that the All Blacks or the South Africans play any less intensely outside of the World Cup than they do in any other competitive match.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints