Shane MacGowan dead

[Nearly Sane]

'Cheap lousy faggot'

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-67546785

[Nearly Sane]

Shane, Queen Margaret Union, Christmas Ball, Glasgow University 1985

[Gordon]

There was a TV documentary on him a year or two ago - he seemed quite vulnerable in that. I'm surprised he lasted this long. 

[Gordon]

Article in the Guardian with links to Youtube videos.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/nov/30/shane-macgowans-10-greatest-recordings 

[ProfessorDavey]

I love Fairlytale of New York (come on, who doesn't) and as someone who hit 18 in 1984 I inevitably have Rum, Soddomy and Lash and If I Should fall from Grace with God, but I was never a big fan. They just seemed too inauthentic to me - classic plastic paddies, largely English, the heart of the band being posh public school kids playing at being Oirish. Tunbridge-Wells born McGowan went to the same school as Andrew Lloyd-Webber, George Osborne and Nick Clegg for crying out loud.

I'm actually quite a fan of what people often call punk folk, but much preferred more genuinely authentic bands such as The Oyster Band, Tansads, Men They Couldn't Hang, Chumbawamba etc who just seemed more authentic musically and politically.

Saw the Pogues live a couple of time and they were so-so but nothing like the phenomenal live experience of Tansads and Oyster Band.

[Steve H]

"Rum, bum and concertina", surely? That was what George Melly said was the naval equivalent of "wine, women and song".

[Steve H]

'Cheap lousy faggot'

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-67546785

Some fucking idiot recently suggested that that line should be altered to "you're cheap and your haggard", because "faggot" is an insulting name for a homosexual. Ffs! The whole point is that it's offensive: the characters in the song are not Guardian-reading Hampstead intellectuals!

[Nearly Sane]

"Rum, bum and concertina", surely? That was what George Melly said was the naval equivalent of "wine, women and song".

Rum, sodomy, and the lash was one of Mr Churchill's, I believe.

[Nearly Sane]

Some fucking idiot recently suggested that that line should be altered to "you're cheap and your haggard", because "faggot is an insulting name for a homosexual. Ffs! The whole point is that it's offensive: the characters in the song are not Guardian-reading Hampstead intellectuals!

It's been 'altered' for some time on the BBC and maby other media outlets. Pretty sure we had a thread on it. It was the censoring of it that prompted me to quote it here.

[Steve H]

It's been 'altered' for some time on the BBC and maby other media outlets. Pretty sure we had a thread on it. It was the censoring of it that prompted me to quote it here.

Come to think of it, it may be the thread on here that first alerted me to the Bowdlerised version.

[Outrider]

It's been 'altered' for some time on the BBC and maby other media outlets. Pretty sure we had a thread on it. It was the censoring of it that prompted me to quote it here.

Last year, if I recall, Radio 1 was playing the 'censored' version, whilst Radio 2 was playing the original; the reasoning given was that they thought a significant portion of the Radio 1 audience would be offended by hearing the original, whilst their Radio 2 audience wouldn't care (perhaps underplaying that a significant portion might be just as offended by the playing of the censored version). So the BBC isn't set on censorship, I think it's just trying to minimise complaints and, arguably, best serve its audience.

O.

[Aruntraveller]

I love Fairlytale of New York (come on, who doesn't)

I'm pleased you like and enjoy the song, but please don't speak for me.

Or to answer you in a more McGowanish tone, I fucking hate it.

[ProfessorDavey]

There was a TV documentary on him a year or two ago - he seemed quite vulnerable in that. I'm surprised he lasted this long.

I think most people were pretty surprised he lived as long as he did.

Not sure which documentary this was but there was one produced by Jonny Depp a few years ago that was the biggest load of sh*te I've seen in a very long time. Believe Depp and McGowan was some kind of Irish mystic, brought up singing and dancing in destitution in rural Ireland. The reality being that he was born in Kent, spent a couple of years in Ireland (at an age where he probably wouldn't remember it at all) and then spent the entirety of the rest of his childhood in England, with his education entirely within English private fee paying schools.

[ProfessorDavey]

I'm pleased you like and enjoy the song, but please don't speak for me.

Or to answer you in a more McGowanish tone, I fucking hate it.

Fair enough - each to their own.

[Nearly Sane]

Last year, if I recall, Radio 1 was playing the 'censored' version, whilst Radio 2 was playing the original; the reasoning given was that they thought a significant portion of the Radio 1 audience would be offended by hearing the original, whilst their Radio 2 audience wouldn't care (perhaps underplaying that a significant portion might be just as offended by the playing of the censored version). So the BBC isn't set on censorship, I think it's just trying to minimise complaints and, arguably, best serve its audience.

O.

By censorship

[Nearly Sane]

I think most people were pretty surprised he lived as long as he did.

Not sure which documentary this was but there was one produced by Jonny Depp a few years ago that was the biggest load of sh*te I've seen in a very long time. Believe Depp and McGowan was some kind of Irish mystic, brought up singing and dancing in destitution in rural Ireland. The reality being that he was born in Kent, spent a couple of years in Ireland (at an age where he probably wouldn't remember it at all) and then spent the entirety of the rest of his childhood in England, with his education entirely within English private fee paying schools.

There seem to be a wheen of Irish people happy to pay tribute to him as an Irishman. Have you informed them that they are not allowed to do so, as you are The Irish Arbiter, and he is no Irish Rover?

[Nearly Sane]

I'm pleased you like and enjoy the song, but please don't speak for me.

Or to answer you in a more McGowanish tone, I fucking hate it.

I believe Shaker, once of this parish, was of a similar opinion to you.

[ProfessorDavey]

There seem to be a wheen of Irish people happy to pay tribute to him as an Irishman.

My understanding was that The Pogues basically made no inroads in Ireland, until they had a song with The Dubliners (who are of course authentically Irish). Actually I don't think any of their albums sold well in Ireland and the only singles that did were either with The Dubliners or with Kirsty McColl, who had a much better track record as a solo artist in Ireland than the Pogues at the time Fairytale of New York came out.

Have you informed them that they are not allowed to do so, as you are The Irish Arbiter, and he is no Irish Rover?

They can have any opinion they like - as can I. But we aren't all entitled to our own facts, which cannot easily be disputed - effectively that McGowan was English born, raised pretty well entirely in SE England, was English private school educated and until Terry Woods and Phil Chevron joined in 85/86 not one of the Pogues failed from Ireland. Their main songwriter Jem Finer was the son of an English academic of Romanian-Jewish background.

Irish, my arse, as McGowan would have said in his carefully created Irish accent.

[Nearly Sane]

My understanding was that The Pogues basically made no inroads in Ireland, until they had a song with The Dubliners (who are of course authentically Irish). Actually I don't think any of their albums sold well in Ireland and the only singles that did were either with The Dubliners or with Kirsty McColl, who had a much better track record as a solo artist in Ireland than the Pogues at the time Fairytale of New York came out.
They can have any opinion they like - as can I. But we aren't all entitled to our own facts, which cannot easily be disputed - effectively that McGowan was English born, raised pretty well entirely in SE England, was English private school educated and until Terry Woods and Phil Chevron joined in 85/86 not one of the Pogues failed from Ireland. Their main songwriter Jem Finer was the son of an English academic of Romanian-Jewish background.

Irish, my arse, as McGowan would have said in his carefully created Irish accent.

All hail The Irish Arbiter.

[Steve H]

All hail The Irish Arbiter.

Is this the "no true Irishman" fallacy?

[Nearly Sane]

Just a few people who are trying to have their own facts about Shane MacGowan and his Irishness who must bow to Professor of Irishness O'Davey


https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/music/2023/11/30/tributes-pour-in-for-the-pogues-frontman-nobody-told-the-irish-story-like-shane/

[Nearly Sane]

Is this the "no true Irishman" fallacy?

sin ceann maith

[ProfessorDavey]

Just a few people who are trying to have their own facts about Shane MacGowan and his Irishness who must bow to Professor of Irishness O'Davey

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/music/2023/11/30/tributes-pour-in-for-the-pogues-frontman-nobody-told-the-irish-story-like-shane/

Nope - not facts, opinions.

Here is a different opinion:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2010/mar/17/st-patricks-day-pogues

[Nearly Sane]

Nope - not facts, opinions.

Here is a different opinion:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2010/mar/17/st-patricks-day-pogues

Well I was only quoting you 'But we aren't all entitled to our own facts', so if you disagree with yourself, feel free to  give yourself a damn good thrashing.

[ProfessorDavey]

"While often labelled as variously "Anglo-Irish", "Hiberno-English" or simply "Irish", amongst others,[1][2][3][4][5] the band has described itself as "all English" in interviews[6] and band members such as Jem Finer and Philip Chevron, once the band's only Irish-born member, objected[7] to the "Irish" label to describe the band;[8][9] James Fearnley refers to the band as "for the most part English".[10] The band has faced accusations of cultural appropriation or insensitivity as an English band playing traditionally Irish music.[11][12][13][14][15] With the departure of Shane MacGowan in 1996, Darryl Hunt explained that, with the loss of the band's only founding member with Irish heritage, the Pogues "respected [...] everybody's culture" and took "energy and ideas" from Irish music as well as elsewhere.[16]"

And this from notes on their Wikipedia page. This is the band talking about themselves. Even their only Irish born member considered the Pogues to be English not Irish. Note also the description of McGowan as having Irish heritage, rather than being Irish.