Author Topic: Shane MacGowan dead  (Read 3106 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Shane MacGowan dead
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2023, 05:09:34 PM »
"While often labelled as variously "Anglo-Irish", "Hiberno-English" or simply "Irish", amongst others,[1][2][3][4][5] the band has described itself as "all English" in interviews[6] and band members such as Jem Finer and Philip Chevron, once the band's only Irish-born member, objected[7] to the "Irish" label to describe the band;[8][9] James Fearnley refers to the band as "for the most part English".[10] The band has faced accusations of cultural appropriation or insensitivity as an English band playing traditionally Irish music.[11][12][13][14][15] With the departure of Shane MacGowan in 1996, Darryl Hunt explained that, with the loss of the band's only founding member with Irish heritage, the Pogues "respected [...] everybody's culture" and took "energy and ideas" from Irish music as well as elsewhere.[16]"

And this from notes on their Wikipedia page. This is the band talking about themselves. Even their only Irish born member considered the Pogues to be English not Irish. Note also the description of McGowan as having Irish heritage, rather than being Irish.
I think we're talking about MacGowan here?

This is an obituary covering the details you've raised.

https://www.irishtimes.com/obituaries/2023/11/30/shane-macgowan-obituary-rank-outsider-who-became-one-of-irelands-most-feted-sons/
In it I would highlight this

'In January 2018, he was presented with a Lifetime Achievement Award by National Concert Hall patron and President of Ireland, Michael D Higgins'

And suggest that Michael D Higgins may be more relevant than you.


ProfessorDavey

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Re: Shane MacGowan dead
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2023, 05:14:45 PM »
Well I was only quoting you 'But we aren't all entitled to our own facts', so if you disagree with yourself, feel free to  give yourself a damn good thrashing.
You do understand the difference between opinions - e.g:

'In a statement, Mr Higgins said MacGowan would be remembered “as one of music’s greatest lyricists”.' or

'Shane MacGowan and chums may drape themselves in the tricolour, but their supposed "Irishness" is a mish-mash of hairy, outmoded cliches, many of which they seem actively interested in perpetuating.'

And facts - e.g.:
MacGowan was born in Kent
MacGowan's upbringing was almost exclusively in England (except a couple of years)
MacGowan went to school at the fee paying Homewood House prep school until the age of 14 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmewood_House_School)
MacGowan then attended the top English Public School Westminster School (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_School) but was expelled at the age of 16
The Pogues were formed in London (err in England) and of the founding members none were born in Ireland and only MacGowan had Irish heritage.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Shane MacGowan dead
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2023, 05:16:01 PM »
Ooh look a statement from the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media in the Irish govt



https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/7acf1-statement-by-catherine-martin-td-on-the-passing-of-shane-macgowan/

Nearly Sane

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Re: Shane MacGowan dead
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2023, 05:18:17 PM »
You do understand the difference between opinions - e.g:

'In a statement, Mr Higgins said MacGowan would be remembered “as one of music’s greatest lyricists”.' or

'Shane MacGowan and chums may drape themselves in the tricolour, but their supposed "Irishness" is a mish-mash of hairy, outmoded cliches, many of which they seem actively interested in perpetuating.'

And facts - e.g.:
MacGowan was born in Kent
MacGowan's upbringing was almost exclusively in England (except a couple of years)
MacGowan went to school at the fee paying Homewood House prep school until the age of 14 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmewood_House_School)
MacGowan then attended the top English Public School Westminster School (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_School) but was expelled at the age of 16
The Pogues were formed in London (err in England) and of the founding members none were born in Ireland and only MacGowan had Irish heritage.

'Leading the tributes was President Michael D. Higgins, who said in a statement: "Like so many across the world, it was with the greatest sadness that I learned this morning of the death of Shane MacGowan.

"Shane will be remembered as one of music's greatest lyricists. So many of his songs would be perfectly crafted poems, if that would not have deprived us of the opportunity to hear him sing them."

He continued: "The genius of Shane's contribution includes the fact that his songs capture within them, as Shane would put it, the measure of our dreams - of so many worlds, and particularly those of love, of the emigrant experience and of facing the challenges of that experience with authenticity and courage, and of living and seeing the sides of life that so many turn away from."

He said that MacGowan's words "connected Irish people all over the globe to their culture and history" and encompassed "so many human emotions in the most poetic of ways."

President Higgins added: "Shane's talent was nurtured from a young age by his mother Therese, herself an award winning folk singer in her own right. Therese, who lost her life in such tragic circumstances on New Year’s Day 2017, inspired in Shane the love of Irish music and traditions which resulted in the wonderful music and lyrics which have been a source of such joy for so many people.'

https://www.rte.ie/entertainment/2023/1130/1419363-president-higgins-leads-tributes-to-shane-macgowan/

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Shane MacGowan dead
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2023, 05:19:49 PM »
Ooh look a statement from the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media in the Irish govt

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/7acf1-statement-by-catherine-martin-td-on-the-passing-of-shane-macgowan/
More opinions I note. Any facts to add there.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Shane MacGowan dead
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2023, 05:21:55 PM »
More opinions I note. Any facts to add there.
The fact that it is an official statement of the Irish Govt.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Shane MacGowan dead
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2023, 05:24:56 PM »
The fact that it is an official statement of the Irish Govt.
Which contains opinions, which are the relevant things here. You do seem terribly confused between fact and opinion.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Shane MacGowan dead
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2023, 05:53:04 PM »
Which contains opinions, which are the relevant things here. You do seem terribly confused between fact and opinion.
And that you think that your opinion is of equivalent weight to Irish govt about Irishness is the best Irish joke for some time.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Shane MacGowan dead
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2023, 05:54:05 PM »
And suggest that Michael D Higgins may be more relevant than you.
But not more relevant that his own band members who considered the Pogues to be English and that MacGowan had Irish heritage, rather than being Irish.

But hey, ho - what do they know - they were only the people who formed the Pogues with MacGowan and created the music that some others seem to be of the opinion 'revitalised Irish traditional music'. But of course other opinions are available, such as the ones written at a time when people didn't think they needed to be terribly polite in public about MacGowan in the days after his death.

Bit sad actually if Irish traditional music needed a bunch of people born in Kent, Eastbourne, Stoke, Dorset, Ladbroke Grove and ... err ... Nigeria to revitalise it. Nonsense, of course, as irish traditional music was alive and well in the 80s and didn't need the Pogues to revitalise it at all. In fact the irony is that had it not been for performing with the Dubliners I doubt the Pogues would have made any inroads into Ireland at all.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Shane MacGowan dead
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2023, 05:59:49 PM »
And that you think that your opinion is of equivalent weight to Irish govt about Irishness is the best Irish joke for some time.
I think I'd value the opinion of founding members of the Pogues, along with MacGowan as to whether they were Irish or English to carry far more weight on the discussion which was about whether the Pogues and MacGowan were authentically Irish than the Irish government. Don't you. You know Finer and Fearnley were actually there at the time - I doubt very much that Catherine Martin was.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Shane MacGowan dead
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2023, 06:02:26 PM »
I think I'd value the opinion of founding members of the Pogues, along with MacGowan as to whether they were Irish or English to carry far more weight on the discussion which was about whether the Pogues and MacGowan were authentically Irish than the Irish government. Don't you. You know Finer and Fearnley were actually there at the time - I doubt very much that Catherine Martin was.
Again we, and the Irish govt minister are talkung about MacGowan. You seem to imply that MacGowan thoughr he wasn't Irish. Can you provide evidence for that?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Shane MacGowan dead
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2023, 06:07:50 PM »
I'm just following the Irish tradition of songwriting, the Irish way of life, the human way of life. Cram as much pleasure into life, and rail against the pain you have to suffer as a result. Or scream and rant with the pain, and wait for it to be taken away with beautiful pleasure . . .

Shane MacGowan

Irish music is guts, balls and feet music, yeah? It’s frenetic dance music, yeah? Or it’s impossibly sad like slow music, yeah? Yeah? And it also handles all sorts of subjects, from rebel songs to comical songs about sex, you know what I mean, yeah? Which I don’t think people realize how much innuendo there is in Irish music.

Shane MacGowan


Nearly Sane

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Shane MacGowan dead
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2023, 06:14:23 PM »
https://theconversation.com/shane-macgowan-a-timeless-voice-for-irelands-diaspora-in-england-197491


He assuaged his homesickness by attending Irish social clubs and regularly visiting Ireland.

“Because there’s an Irish scene in London,” MacGowan later explained, “you never forget the fact that you originally came from Ireland. There are lots of Irish pubs, so there was always Irish music in bars and on jukeboxes. Then every summer I would spend my school holidays back in Tipperary.”

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Shane MacGowan dead
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2023, 06:14:49 PM »
I'm just following the Irish tradition of songwriting, the Irish way of life, the human way of life. Cram as much pleasure into life, and rail against the pain you have to suffer as a result. Or scream and rant with the pain, and wait for it to be taken away with beautiful pleasure . . .

Shane MacGowan

Irish music is guts, balls and feet music, yeah? It’s frenetic dance music, yeah? Or it’s impossibly sad like slow music, yeah? Yeah? And it also handles all sorts of subjects, from rebel songs to comical songs about sex, you know what I mean, yeah? Which I don’t think people realize how much innuendo there is in Irish music.

Shane MacGowan
And before he'd changed his accent and created this carefully narrative of being Oirish. From 1987.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQNNjvBoWQY

'I see things as a Londoner.'

Not really much evidence of this massive Irishness here, despite being interviewed by an Irish interviewer for an Irish tv show on the topic of his Irishness. Sounds to me like a Londoner of Irish heritage - seems all the band-mates, including MacGown were of a similar opinion at the time when they were actually making the music.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Shane MacGowan dead
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2023, 06:19:07 PM »
You seem to imply that MacGowan thoughr he wasn't Irish. Can you provide evidence for that?
'I see things as a Londoner' - Shane MacGowan 1987.

Sure later in his life (frankly after he stopped making any music of note) he created this great Irish narrative, changed his accent etc - but it really wasn't there when he and his fellow English born musicians in the Pogues were actually making the music which they (note they, it wasn't just MacGowan who created the music) are famous for.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Shane MacGowan dead
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2023, 07:15:15 PM »
'I see things as a Londoner' - Shane MacGowan 1987.

Sure later in his life (frankly after he stopped making any music of note) he created this great Irish narrative, changed his accent etc - but it really wasn't there when he and his fellow English born musicians in the Pogues were actually making the music which they (note they, it wasn't just MacGowan who created the music) are famous for.
You do realise that doesn't imply that he didn't think of himself as Irish? And again we're talking about MacGowan.


I take it you think the Duke of Wellington was Irish?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Shane MacGowan dead
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2023, 09:41:14 PM »
Come to think of it, it may be the thread on here that first alerted me to the Bowdlerised version.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Shane MacGowan dead
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2023, 10:08:09 PM »
Of course while Prof D and I have been whiffling on about whether Shane MacGowan should be seen as Irish, we have missed that he is the Irish Christ or something.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid026YtNULZQCccbdYiM7Jpwrpo9UgACx9ZwTNBaTsX9pL9oUmwS7pij2YyWL4XGUodsl&id=659246191&mibextid=WC7FNe

Copied from link for those without FB access

'I woke up in the early morning to the news about Shane, and immediately thought, for some reason, about the way he spoke of his childhood years in Tipperary, where his extended family lived in a small cottage without running water that doubled as an IRA safe house.

Here in rural Ireland young Shane lived in an atmosphere of myth and magic, faerie and saints, rosaries and revolution, beer and whiskey, profanity, prayers and intense familial love. He was drinking beer, betting on horses, and praying to the angels and saints at five years old - that is when he wasn't romping around in the muddy fields or the deep green woods. He spoke of these times with an aching, tender longing.

When he won a literary scholarship and left to live permanently in England, the sense of dislocation was intense. To hear him tell, it was as though he had left a tribal society with deep roots and traditions to be thrust into an alien, industrial hell, faceless and without love. Then of course there was the explicit anti-Irish racism of the time. The end result was a total breakdown, institutionalization, tranquilizers and electric shock therapy. I guess they might have thought he was just another crazy Paddy who would slip between the cracks and never be heard from again. They were wrong and what rose up would spit in their faces and overtake them with its ferocious and unyielding beauty.

The Pogues were his answer to this dislocation, a cry of rage and pride, an assertion of worth and a visionary mission. By taking Irish music into the nascent punk movement, he was both a preservationist and a radical innovator. But it wouldn't have meant so much without his songwriting. At one point there was a website that annotated his lyrics, so rife are they with allusions to Lorca and Genet, Irish revolutionary politics and ancient Celtic myth, pop culture, history and geography. Shane was a literary genius, and those who paid attention knew. But most of all his songs had heart, and a longing - a longing in the deep heart's core. I feel perhaps it was a longing for home, a home that in some ways no longer existed.

You'll hear a lot of talk in the press about the drinking and drugs. Fair enough. He did a lot of both. But honestly you can walk into any dive bar worth its salt and find some old man who has been relentlessly abusing himself for fifty years. It's not really anything to talk about - unless he's also written some of the greatest songs of all time.

These days, everything is medicalized. And of course Shane was an addict and alcoholic. But he always claimed that derangement of the senses was his path to creative inspiration and frankly it's bullshit to say that never works. It does however have a price and I mourn that his final couple of decades seem to have been bereft of songs. He burned hard and bright until there didn't seem to be much left to burn. That was his choice. His final years seem to have been spent in a wheelchair watching television. Occasionally Bob Dylan or Bruce Springsteen would stop by to meet their hero.

But I can't complain about what he left us. We weren't entitled to any of it: he gave it freely.

He gave it as a poet, a singer, a bard.

A shaman, an exorcist, a druid.

A rebel, a lover, a scholar.

An Irishman.

Before Rome's disastrous intervention and Britain's colonization, there was an Irish Christianity that grew organically in Ireland and had pagan roots. The Christ of this tradition was different from the Christ of Europe. He was a Druidic Christ who rode the winds, who howled with the wolves in the wildwood, who spoke with spirits by secret brooks - and also a Christ of the hearth, the fire, the mug of ale shared between friends. He was a holy trickster, a magician, a storyteller, and God.

It's this Christ I like to imagine welcoming Ireland's greatest son home tonight, to a heaven that looks a lot like Tipperary.'
« Last Edit: December 01, 2023, 10:15:32 PM by Nearly Sane »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Shane MacGowan dead
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2023, 10:28:09 AM »
You do realise that doesn't imply that he didn't think of himself as Irish?
Sure - but it would be a bit odd in an interview for an Irish programme, when being interviewed by an Irish interviewer who is asking about the importance of his Irish-ness to fail to talk about the importance of his Irish-ness, if it was important.

But that is exactly what he does - he effectively dismisses his Irishness beyond matter of factness (e.g. that some of the first music he heard was Irish) - his entire passion in the interview is in talking about London as a melting pot where you can immerse yourself in all sorts of cultures.

But then, in his own words he sees things as a Londoner.

And again we're talking about MacGowan.
What does that mean? Surely the best way to understand the importance of Irish-ness to MacGowan would be to ask him specifically about it. That's what the interviewer did - and certainly in 1987 (when MacGowan was at his most creative) he considers himself foremost a Londoner, not Irish. Which would, of course make sense as by that point pretty well all the life he would have remembered was spent in London hinterland (Kent, Sussex), or London itself.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Shane MacGowan dead
« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2023, 12:48:05 PM »
To expand on my dislike of this song it does come down to that one lyric (although in general, I don't like Christmas songs so there is that as well):

"You scumbag, you maggot
You cheap lousy faggot"

Accusations of snowflakery are bound to fly my way I am sure, but when that particular slur has been used in physical and verbal abuse against you as has happened to me in the past, then it is not that easy to just shrug it off as a lyric.

I would ask that if you find the above lyric acceptable, then the below amended one is also acceptable:

"You scumbag, you runt
You cheap lousy cunt"

If you don't think this is acceptable then you are showing some incredible double standards.

I'm not suggesting banning it or changing it, I'm just saying that it is not quite as easy as saying it's only words by a character in a song.

It was first released in when the mid 80's? A time when homophobia was rife and violence was a very real possibility against gay people. The tone in which it is sung and the times it was released in make it problematic for me.

Incidentally, I find the use of the word "queer" equally problematic and do not like the fact that it has been added to the alpabetti spaghetti of LGB etc.

And before some bright spark decides to lecture me on "reclaiming language" there is some language I would rather not reclaim.

If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. - God is Love.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Shane MacGowan dead
« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2023, 01:19:34 PM »
I'd find the changed lyric you suggest acceptable. Though it would never have been played on the radio, not because of any motivation of it being sexist but because of other weird reasoning.  And let's remember the song already includes 'old slut on junk'.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Shane MacGowan dead
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2023, 03:32:11 PM »
To expand on my dislike of this song it does come down to that one lyric (although in general, I don't like Christmas songs so there is that as well):

"You scumbag, you maggot
You cheap lousy faggot"

Accusations of snowflakery are bound to fly my way I am sure, but when that particular slur has been used in physical and verbal abuse against you as has happened to me in the past, then it is not that easy to just shrug it off as a lyric.

I would ask that if you find the above lyric acceptable, then the below amended one is also acceptable:

"You scumbag, you runt
You cheap lousy cunt"

If you don't think this is acceptable then you are showing some incredible double standards.

I'm not suggesting banning it or changing it, I'm just saying that it is not quite as easy as saying it's only words by a character in a song.

It was first released in when the mid 80's? A time when homophobia was rife and violence was a very real possibility against gay people. The tone in which it is sung and the times it was released in make it problematic for me.

Incidentally, I find the use of the word "queer" equally problematic and do not like the fact that it has been added to the alpabetti spaghetti of LGB etc.

And before some bright spark decides to lecture me on "reclaiming language" there is some language I would rather not reclaim.
We are in different times now and while 'faggot' seemed acceptable in the 80s, it wouldn't be now.

But actually I'm a bit confused by the words anyway as they don't really seem right. The song is about a heterosexual couple throwing insults at each other. So the man describing the woman as a 'slut' seems plausible, but the woman calling the man a 'faggot' seems a bit perplexing.

The other thing I wonder is how much input Kirsty McColl had in the lyrics she sang. We certainly know that her and MacGowan sang their bits at different times in different studios so perfectly possible that McColl might have made some changes herself. And don't forget that she came from genuine folk songwriting 'royalty' so I image she knew a thing or two about songwriting and lyric writing.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Shane MacGowan dead
« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2023, 10:00:49 AM »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Shane MacGowan dead
« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2023, 10:42:31 AM »
Interesting interview with his wife on radio 4 yesterday morning. In it she described his deep affection for the royals, including crying when Prince Phillip died. Plus that he was an avid reader of the Daily Telegraph - the sort of thing you'd expect more from a privately educated member of the English middle classes than an Irish radical mystic. But hey, ho one side for his public image, another in private.