Shane MacGowan dead

[Aruntraveller]

We are in different times now and while 'faggot' seemed acceptable in the 80s, it wouldn't be now.

I wasn't aware it was acceptable. Thank you for clarifying the matter for me.

[ProfessorDavey]

I wasn't aware it was acceptable. Thank you for clarifying the matter for me.

I never said it ‘was acceptable’ I said it ‘seemed acceptable’ in the 80s. Those are different things.

[Aruntraveller]

I'm confused.

"Seemed acceptable"

 "it wouldn't be now".

Not sure what you are saying.

[jeremyp]

I never said it ‘was acceptable’ I said it ‘seemed acceptable’ in the 80s. Those are different things.

It's not meant to be acceptable, it's meant to be an insult.

[ProfessorDavey]

I'm confused.

"Seemed acceptable"

 "it wouldn't be now".

Not sure what you are saying.

Apologies if I wasn't being clear.

What I am saying was that in the 80s the word 'faggot' was pretty commonplace as an insult and therefore seemed to be an acceptable word to use in that context within general society. That has shifted now - the word is now considered much less acceptable than it once was, largely because we are much more attuned to homophobia as a society than we were 40 years ago.

Hence why when the song was first released there was very little comment about the use of the word and certainly I don't remember any clamour to ban the song due to the presence of that word in the lyrics. However more recently that has changed with a more general view that the word isn't acceptable, leading to calls for the song to be either banned or the lyric altered.

[jeremyp]

But actually I'm a bit confused by the words anyway as they don't really seem right. The song is about a heterosexual couple throwing insults at each other. So the man describing the woman as a 'slut' seems plausible, but the woman calling the man a 'faggot' seems a bit perplexing.

My memory of the 1980's is that people often thought that accusing other people of being gay was an insult.

The reality is more likely that "maggot" is a good insult and McGowan was looking for something to rhyme with it.

[ProfessorDavey]

It's not meant to be acceptable, it's meant to be an insult.

There are words that within a society at a particular time are considered acceptable and/or unacceptable to use as insults. And that shifts with time - in the 70s the use of racial insults using the N word and the P word were commonplace and therefore considered 'acceptable' to the society of that time. Things have changed and those terms are now considered deeply unacceptable even as insults as they are considered deeply racist.

In his lyrics I think MacGowan was choosing from the lexicon of broadly 'accepted' insults with 1980s UK society. I don't think his intention was to shock by using words beyond that 80s acceptable set of insult words. Interestingly some offensive words have gone the other was, being more accepted now as insults than previously - I think the most obvious being the C-word.

[ProfessorDavey]

My memory of the 1980's is that people often thought that accusing other people of being gay was an insult.

True - but that doesn't really work in the context of a couple where the man is clearly not gay. It doesn't work now (although it wouldn't be considered an insult in the manner it was in the 80s) but it didn't really work then either.

[Aruntraveller]

What I am saying was that in the 80s the word 'faggot' was pretty commonplace as an insult and therefore seemed to be an acceptable word to use in that context within general society.

As I said before, I am not a huge fan of Christmas songs but I do clearly remember when I first became aware of this song which was in a city centre pub in Nottingham when the drunk, mainly men sang along in glee with this tune, giving particular emphasis to that section of the song. Not with any great understanding of the lyrics, just a joy at being allowed to use language of that sort, that may, or may not, have expressed some deeper feelings on their part. That the word may have been "acceptable" in parts of society doesn't negate my feelings about the use of the word, and the feelings of many others who have had that word used against them. For a song to be as good a song as you seem to be arguing it is, it would not provoke such feelings in an at that time marginalised group.

I agree with Jeremyp here, he was looking for a rhyme either for maggot or faggot and this is what we got.

As you point out it doesn't work in the context of the song and signifies a bit of lazy lyric writing at the least and at worst an unthinking attitude toward certain groups in society.

Either way, they are not signifiers of a great or even a good song.

[Nearly Sane]

....

I agree with Jeremyp here, he was looking for a rhyme either for maggot or faggot and this is what we got.

As you point out it doesn't work in the context of the song and signifies a bit of lazy lyric writing at the least and at worst an unthinking attitude toward certain groups in society.

Either way, they are not signifiers of a great or even a good song.

Leaving aside, the merits of the song, I disagree about the term 'faggot' working in context. In terms of a broken relationship, a woman using any number of terms to imply that the man is not a 'real' man has a llot onger history than Fairytale of New York.

[ProfessorDavey]

That the word may have been "acceptable" in parts of society doesn't negate my feelings about the use of the word, and the feelings of many others who have had that word used against them.

But isn't that exactly the point.

There are plenty of words that at one time were deemed acceptable by broader society, yet were deeply offensive to a minority. Offensive words with homophobic or racial impact fall into that category. Over time we have seen a shift in general acceptability on the basis that broader society has come to recognise the offensive nature of those words to minority groups and, in some cases, deemed them no longer acceptable.

For a song to be as good a song as you seem to be arguing it is, it would not provoke such feelings in an at that time marginalised group.

A fair point and this is why there is a debate about whether the song should be banned or the offensive word altered. But actually I'm not much of a one for lyrics generally - it is always the music that does it (or doesn't do it) for me. And in this case the lyrics are certainly not the thing about the song that I like. For me it is the music which makes it for me - the music which was written not by MacGowan but by Jem Finer.

But the thing about Christmas songs is that there evoke time and place in a very specific way about a particular time of year. So they don't actually need to be 'good' songs to do that, what they need to do is to press those memory buttons.

[ProfessorDavey]

I agree with Jeremyp here, he was looking for a rhyme either for maggot or faggot and this is what we got.

As you point out it doesn't work in the context of the song and signifies a bit of lazy lyric writing at the least and at worst an unthinking attitude toward certain groups in society.

Agree on both counts - as an insult for a heterosexual man it seem no more appropriate that describing him as a slut or a whore. Some insults are universal - others only really work for sub-sets of society.

[Nearly Sane]

Agree on both counts - as an insult for a heterosexual man it seem no more appropriate that describing him as a slut or a whore. Some insults are universal - others only really work for sub-sets of society.

Not really sure what you mean by 'work' here. Let's take a different slur 'spaz'. It was used in my memory almost consistently for people who did not belong to the 'sub-set' of society to which it was a slur.

[jeremyp]

True - but that doesn't really work in the context of a couple where the man is clearly not gay.

Yes it does - or it did back then.

[ProfessorDavey]

Yes it does - or it did back then.

Not sure it does.

Remember the context here is a woman throwing insults at her male lover at the point when they were breaking up. While there are plenty of insults that seem quite likely there are a few that seem rather more unlikely - bitch or slut or whore spring to mind - faggot would sit in that category.

But you are probably correct that MacGowan chose faggot simply because it rhymed with maggot rather than because it would be a likely insult in that context. Likewise 'punk' (hardly a particularly potent insult), but good to rhyme with junk.