6 Nations Rugby Men and Women 2024

[SqueakyVoice]

It certainly looks that way. Coming so soon after the World Cup disappointment, I wonder how much a Grand Slam, it it occurs, will feel devalued for the Irish, 'just another Grand Slam'.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_(rugby_union).England have won the grand slam 13 times. (Unfortunately, there's a reminder the Scotland won theirs in 1990 (the less I remember of that, the better ). On average its a GS in about 1/3 since the year dot.
I suspect most Eng fans do value a GS.
The biggest devalued item so far is ITV. Their camera  team have no idea how to spot the French and its far more important to watch adverts than review the test so far.

[ProfessorDavey]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_(rugby_union).England have won the grand slam 13 times. (Unfortunately, there's a reminder the Scotland won theirs in 1990 (the less I remember of that, the better ). On average its a GS in about 1/3 since the year dot.
I suspect most Eng fans do value a GS.
The biggest devalued item so far is ITV. Their camera  team have no idea how to spot the French and its far more important to watch adverts than review the test so far.

Even England would value a World Cup win way higher than another Grand Slam, despite at least having a World Cup win under their belt. As for Scotland, France, Ireland - well the value of a world cup win is off the scale in comparison with a grand slam.

[Nearly Sane]

Even England would value a World Cup win way higher than another Grand Slam, despite at least having a World Cup win under their belt. As for Scotland, France, Ireland - well the value of a world cup win is off the scale in comparison with a grand slam.

I'll take the Grand Slam just now. Scotland winning the World Cup isn't realistic. France and Ireland had a chance

[ProfessorDavey]

I'll take the Grand Slam just now. Scotland winning the World Cup isn't realistic. France and Ireland had a chance

Whether a World Cup win is realistic is besides the point. The question is whether supporters of Scotland, Wales, France, Ireland (and England) would prefer to win a first World Cup title (or a second  World Cup title) or another Grand Slam. I think the answer is clearly the former.

However you have just demonstrated the lack of ambition so evidence amongst NH rugby (particularly Wales, Scotland and Ireland), basically, 'hey, we aren't going to ever win a world cup, so let's focus on winning the 6 Nations'. This is also evident in the structural lack of ambition in the very concept of the Lions - 'hey, we'll never bear the SH team on the own home soil so perhaps if we put together 4 teams we might have a chance'.

Rugby is a minority sport pretty well everywhere (arguably not in NZ and Wales, but they have tiny populations) - there is no reason why any of the 6 nations sides (with the exception of Italy) shouldn't believe they can win the world cup. Why are SH sides so inherently better that the likes of Scotland concede that they can't win before a pass is thrown.

[Nearly Sane]

Whether a World Cup win is realistic is besides the point. The question is whether supporters of Scotland, Wales, France, Ireland (and England) would prefer to win a first World Cup title (or a second  World Cup title) or another Grand Slam. I think the answer is clearly the former.

However you have just demonstrated the lack of ambition so evidence amongst NH rugby (particularly Wales, Scotland and Ireland), basically, 'hey, we aren't going to ever win a world cup, so let's focus on winning the 6 Nations'. This is also evident in the structural lack of ambition in the very concept of the Lions - 'hey, we'll never bear the SH team on the own home soil so perhaps if we put together 4 teams we might have a chance'.

Rugby is a minority sport pretty well everywhere (arguably not in NZ and Wales, but they have tiny populations) - there is no reason why any of the 6 nations sides (with the exception of Italy) shouldn't believe they can win the world cup. Why are SH sides so inherently better that the likes of Scotland concede that they can't win before a pass is thrown.

You seem to want to say Scotland fans would rather have a World Cup win than a Grandd Slam but if they don't they are lacking in ambition. How is that tasty cake yoy. are having and eating?

 And you seem to have little understanding of sport. To take an example, Greenock Morton after 12 games this season had 8 pounts and were 6 points adrift at the bottom of the league. At that point I had no ambitions that we would win the Champions League, nor even hain promotion, the aim was not to be relegated. After 22 games  we now have 32 points and are in the last playoff position. The automatic promotion position has 45 points currently. At sometime in our run of 7 wins and 3 draws, I decided we were safe from relegation and started hoping for a play off spot. Winning the league though is still not a worthwhile ambition. If we take 24 points in the next 10 games, let's see. Winning the Champions League or even the SPL still not ambitions.


Now as to Scotland in rugby union, we haven't the Six Nations ever, never mind a Grand Slam, and it's a yearly competition. In order to consider the World Cup, we should be winning the 6 Nations regularly, with the occasional Slam. Till then talkung about winning the World Cup is unrealistic.

You see as the Morton tale of the bank goes, these things come in stages, and in addition just to help you out the World Cup only happens every four years so.as a fan, I'll take that Slam as possible though a tough ask, before any talk of the World Cup. Happy to have helped you begin to understand sport 

[ProfessorDavey]

You seem to want to say Scotland fans would rather have a World Cup win than a Grandd Slam but if they don't they are lacking in ambition. How is that tasty cake yoy. are having and eating?

 And you seem to have little understanding of sport. To take an example, Greenock Morton after 12 games this season had 8 pounts and were 6 points adrift at the bottom of the league. At that point I had no ambitions that we would win the Champions League, nor even hain promotion, the aim was not to be relegated. After 22 games  we now have 32 points and are in the last playoff position. The automatic promotion position has 45 points currently. At sometime in our run of 7 wins and 3 draws, I decided we were safe from relegation and started hoping for a play off spot. Winning the league though is still not a worthwhile ambition. If we take 24 points in the next 10 games, let's see. Winning the Champions League or even the SPL still not ambitions.


Now as to Scotland in rugby union, we haven't the Six Nations ever, never mind a Grand Slam, and it's a yearly competition. In order to consider the World Cup, we should be winning the 6 Nations regularly, with the occasional Slam. Till then talkung about winning the World Cup is unrealistic.

You see as the Morton tale of the bank goes, these things come in stages, and in addition just to help you out the World Cup only happens every four years so.as a fan, I'll take that Slam as possible though a tough ask, before any talk of the World Cup. Happy to have helped you begin to understand sport

You do understand how you're comparison between Morton and Scotland is complete nonsense.

Morton cannot win the champions league when it is next played - it is impossible, as to even have a chance of qualifying they'll need to gain promotion to the Premiership to even make it a possibility. But then they'd have to qualify for the champions league, etc, etc. And Morton are ranking 16th just in Scotland, heaven knows where they would be ranked in a list of all the clubs eligible for the champions league. So sure Morton winning the champions league is not a realistic ambition.

But Scotland have already qualified for the 2027 World Cup and are currently ranked 6th in the world in the rugby rankings. Under those circumstances I think it is a perfectly reasonable ambition to be aspiring to win the world cup. Doesn't mean they'll do it, but currently the NH teams, particularly the celtic ones, seem to be so defeatist that the assume the best they might achieve is perhaps a semi final finish. Why? There is no earthly reason why Scotland, Ireland and Wales should not genuinely be considering that they can win it and plan over a four year period to aim to win it - and that may mean not worrying too much about how they do in individual 6 nations tournaments as long as they peak in a world cup year. 

[Nearly Sane]

You do understand how you're comparison between Morton and Scotland is complete nonsense.

Morton cannot win the champions league when it is next played - it is impossible, as to even have a chance of qualifying they'll need to gain promotion to the Premiership to even make it a possibility. But then they'd have to qualify for the champions league, etc, etc. And Morton are ranking 16th just in Scotland, heaven knows where they would be ranked in a list of all the clubs eligible for the champions league. So sure Morton winning the champions league is not a realistic ambition.

But Scotland have already qualified for the 2027 World Cup and are currently ranked 6th in the world in the rugby rankings. Under those circumstances I think it is a perfectly reasonable ambition to be aspiring to win the world cup. Doesn't mean they'll do it, but currently the NH teams, particularly the celtic ones, seem to be so defeatist that the assume the best they might achieve is perhaps a semi final finish. Why? There is no earthly reason why Scotland, Ireland and Wales should not genuinely be considering that they can win it and plan over a four year period to aim to win it - and that may mean not worrying too much about how they do in individual 6 nations tournaments as long as they peak in a world cup year.

I see analogy is something you struggle with understanding as well as sport. The Morton example, which used the Champions League as a reductio rather than a direct comparison with the World Cup, was about how in any ambition there are gradations, and they can develop, and change 


Given it's 40 years since Scotland won a Grand Slam, a four year plan that was successful would be a hood achievement. In thinking that might be a more realustic goal, given changing national performances in any sport needs a good long term plan is not defeatist just realistic. While for that and any World Cup ambition, it may be necessary to take a coupke of steps back or to the side in any one year of the Six Natiobs, if we are not winning the 6 Nations we're not likely to be winning the World Cup.


As to your judgemenf the Celtic nations to be defeatist  I take it you've missed Ireland's bitter disappointment at not winning the World Cup last year.

[ProfessorDavey]

I see analogy is something you struggle with understanding as well as sport. The Morton example, which used the Champions League as a reductio rather than a direct comparison with the World Cup, was about how in any ambition there are gradations, and they can develop, and change

Your analogy is Morton and the Champions League is complete bollox I'm afraid NS.

Over the past year or so Scotland have been ranked 5th or 6th of the teams that compete in the World Cup. Uefa also ranks club sides - i.e. those eligible to compete in the Champions League - over the past year or so the following teams have ranked 5th or 6th in that ranking: Inter Milan, Liverpool, PSG, Real Madrid, Chelsea and Barcelona. That's the comparison in football terms, not Morton. Do you really think those clubs cannot realistically have an ambition to win the Champions League?

[ProfessorDavey]

Given it's 40 years since Scotland won a Grand Slam, a four year plan that was successful would be a hood achievement. In thinking that might be a more realustic goal, given changing national performances in any sport needs a good long term plan is not defeatist just realistic. While for that and any World Cup ambition, it may be necessary to take a coupke of steps back or to the side in any one year of the Six Natiobs, if we are not winning the 6 Nations we're not likely to be winning the World Cup.

Of course it takes time to get to the top, but any side ranked 5th or 6th should have that firmly as a priority. While sides (particularly Wales, Ireland and Scotland) continue to prioritise the annual yawn-fest of the 6 nations they will never take that longer term view require to build to a peak at the world cup.

The only NH sides that really tried in this regard are France and England and particularly England moved their focus away from the 6 nations and the unwelcome (if you are building to a world cup) distraction of the Lions, towards a situation where they regularly beat the top SH teams on their home soil and routinely beat them on NH soil. That's why England's track record over the past 20 or so years in the World Cup (one win, two further finals and a semi final and on each of those occasions being the last NH side standing) from 6 tournaments has been much more impressive than their 6 nations result over the same period (just 4 wins in the 20 tournaments since they won the world cup).

[ProfessorDavey]

As to your judgemenf the Celtic nations to be defeatist  I take it you've missed Ireland's bitter disappointment at not winning the World Cup last year.

My recollection was that the Irish weren't bitterly disappointed not to win the world cup (how would we know, they never came close) - nope my memory tells me they were bitterly disappoint not to get beyond the quarter finals, yet again. I think their level of ambition was to get further than they'd got before, rather than to win - but they failed to do that. Their ambition was to break the quarter final curse. This from the Irish Times:

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2023/10/15/rugby-world-cup-it-hurts-of-course-it-does-but-ireland-left-it-all-out-there/

Apparently they would have 'made history' had they reached a semi-final. Nope if your ambition is to win the tournament, you make history by ... err ... winning the tournament not just getting to a semi final.

“Let’s not forget we were playing against the All Blacks here, and we came within touching distance of making history. I couldn’t fault the application of the players. It just hurts all that more given the context of what has happened in previous tournaments. I am left wondering though in terms of reaching a semi-final, if not now, then when?”[/]

[Nearly Sane]

Your analogy is Morton and the Champions League is complete bollox I'm afraid NS.

Over the past year or so Scotland have been ranked 5th or 6th of the teams that compete in the World Cup. Uefa also ranks club sides - i.e. those eligible to compete in the Champions League - over the past year or so the following teams have ranked 5th or 6th in that ranking: Inter Milan, Liverpool, PSG, Real Madrid, Chelsea and Barcelona. That's the comparison in football terms, not Morton. Do you really think those clubs cannot realistically have an ambition to win the Champions League?

I see despite my best attempts analogy is still beyond you. And sport. Ah well. Such a shame 

[ProfessorDavey]

I see despite my best attempts analogy is still beyond you.

Definition of analogy: "a comparison between things that have similar features, often used to help explain a principle or idea"

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/analogy

So in a discussion of a reasonable level of ambition in a sports competition the similar features would, of course, refer to how good those teams are in comparison with other teams edible to play that competition - a ranking of teams if you like.

So a reasonable analogy is to compare the 5th/6th ranked team in the rugby World Cup (Scotland) with teams with similar features in the Champions League, i.e. ranked 5th/6th. This would be a comparison with Inter Milan, Liverpool, PSG, Real Madrid, Chelsea or Barcelona, not with Greenock Morton.

You could, of course develop a reasonable analogy in the reverse direction - comparing Greenock Morton (ranked 700 in Uefa club rankings) with the 700th ranked team eligible to play in the rugby World Cup. Oh, except you can't as there aren't 700 countries on the globe so it is impossible to find a team in world rugby ranked as low as Greenock Morton are in the Champion League rankings!

So I'm not really sure whether your issue is that you really don't understand what an analogy is, or you are really, really shit at formulating them.

[ProfessorDavey]

Predictions for this weekend's games.

Presumably Ireland comfortably beat Italy, so will remain top of the table by the end of the weekend.

But the other two games are pretty interesting. My gut suggests home wins in both games.

[Nearly Sane]

Wins for Ireland, France, England

[jeremyp]

My recollection was that the Irish weren't bitterly disappointed not to win the world cup

Really? That's your recollection is it?

(how would we know, they never came close)

Yes they did. They had one bad match in the QF that they lost by less than a score. I don't think anybody doubts that they would have rolled over Argentina in the semis.

- nope my memory tells me they were bitterly disappoint not to get beyond the quarter finals, yet again. I think their level of ambition was to get further than they'd got before, rather than to win

You really don't understand sport, do you. Going into the tournament, they were the top ranked side in the World. Of course they thought they could win.

[jeremyp]

Predictions for this weekend's games.

Presumably Ireland comfortably beat Italy, so will remain top of the table by the end of the weekend.

But the other two games are pretty interesting. My gut suggests home wins in both games.

I think France will be too strong for Scotland and England should beat a poor Wales, but that is the only match where I'm not confident of the result.

[Nearly Sane]

Boo!

[ProfessorDavey]

Yes they did. They had one bad match in the QF that they lost by less than a score.

No they didn't come close - they were knocked out in the quarter finals, the first knockout stage. That isn't close to winning a tournament in anyone's books.

I don't think anybody doubts that they would have rolled over Argentina in the semis.

But it is a complete hypothetical isn't it, as they didn't get as far as a semi final, because they got knocked out in the quarter final.

[ProfessorDavey]

You really don't understand sport, do you. Going into the tournament, they were the top ranked side in the World. Of course they thought they could win.

What I understand, and you seem to be failing to understand, is that at the highest level sport isn't just about the physical/technical ability. It is also about the mental aspects - being mentally touch and having self belief that you can win. This applies to team and individual sports. And often the difference between the world beaters and the also rans isn't major difference in physical/technical ability, but a difference in self belief.

I think Ireland lacked the self belief that they could win the world cup, regardless of whether they were ranked no1. That's what did for them - and the suggestion of 'making history' by getting to a semi final speaks volumes about that lack of self belief. If you have the self belief that you can win the think making a semi final is merely a necessary stepping stone, not something you'd consider to be 'making history'.

[jeremyp]

No they didn't come close - they were knocked out in the quarter finals, the first knockout stage.

By a whisker.

That isn't close to winning a tournament in anyone's books.
But it is a complete hypothetical isn't it, as they didn't get as far as a semi final, because they got knocked out in the quarter final.

It was about as certain as it gets in rugby without actually happening.

[jeremyp]

I think Ireland lacked the self belief that they could win the world cup,

Nonsense.

Of course they believed they could win. Perhaps they believed a little too much.

This narrative of choking was tacked on after they lost narrowly against another strong team.

[jeremyp]

I think France will be too strong for Scotland and England should beat a poor Wales, but that is the only match where I'm not confident of the result.

So far my predictions are sort of true, but both matches were much closer than I expected.

[Nearly Sane]

So far my predictions are sort of true, but both matches were much closer than I expected.

Not great games

[ProfessorDavey]

By a whisker.

In a knockout match it doesn't matter if you lose by one point or twenty points, the result is identical - you are out of the tournament.

It was about as certain as it gets in rugby without actually happening.

A whole pile of 'what ifs' there JP - if Ireland had won their QF and if they were playing Argentina in a SF, what might have happened, and if they had won a SF (which they weren't in anyhow), what might have happened in a final!

Bottom line - none of this happened because Ireland lost in the QF to a side nominally ranked lower than them - but NZ have immense self belief in their ability to win (as do South Africa) - something I think Ireland lacked and that mental attitude and lack of belief probably did for them. Not only were NZ ranked lower than Ireland they also played 20 minutes of the game with 14 players, yet they won and were actually never behind in the match - that speaks volumes for their level of self belief.

[ProfessorDavey]

Not great games

Only saw bits of the Ireland-Italy match as was at a 100th birthday do in Wales on Saturday afternoon. Listened to the England-Wales match in the car on the way home with my Welsh rugby fanatic wife!! Good job I was driving!

Lot's of muttering in the papers and other media about the state of the game. Matches seem to be being decided by the highly technical decisions of the officials (whether decisions on tries, yellow/red cards) rather than the players. It is becoming a problem I think.