Author Topic: VAT on private school fees  (Read 349 times)

Steve H

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VAT on private school fees
« on: October 19, 2024, 04:57:43 PM »
I should damn well think so too. Take away their charitable status as well.
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”Some users in the group also documented the steps they were having to take to pay for the increased fees. One said they had “cancelled RSPB and my national trust membership”, another said that they had dropped work on a kitchen and a third that they had “cancelled a new driveway”.
self-parody at its finest.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/oct/19/bridget-phillipson-nazis-private-school-vat-facebook-group
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jeremyp

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Re: VAT on private school fees
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2024, 07:21:15 PM »
I should damn well think so too. Take away their charitable status as well.self-parody at its finest.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/oct/19/bridget-phillipson-nazis-private-school-vat-facebook-group

Whilst I agree that private schools are not charities and customers should pay VAT, I think your crowing about it is somewhat distasteful. Don't forget that the people sending their children to private schools are paying for their education twice over.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: VAT on private school fees
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2024, 08:01:29 PM »
Whilst I agree that private schools are not charities and customers should pay VAT, I think your crowing about it is somewhat distasteful. Don't forget that the people sending their children to private schools are paying for their education twice over.
The other aspect is as is covered in the article

"Those opposed to the policy have warned that the plans are rushed, state schools will see an influx and that children with special educational needs and disabilities will be affected, as will children from military families and those from small religious faiths.".

I've listened to numerous people with special needs kids who have said this, and the concern is genuine, and doesn't seem to be addressed by the govt before or after the election. I don't think that makes it impossible to do but rather like the winter fuel allowance withdrawal, I don't think the govts done the work to make this OK for such cases.

I have a lot less sympathy for people from small religious faiths.

jeremyp

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Re: VAT on private school fees
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2024, 03:09:37 PM »
"Those opposed to the policy have warned that the plans are rushed, state schools will see an influx and that children with special educational needs and disabilities will be affected, as will children from military families and those from small religious faiths.".
If all private schools shut down, thew increase in the state school population would be about 7.5% which is something that would need to be planned for, but not insuperable. However, that is not what will happen. Probably only a small percentage of private school children will immediately transfer to state schools. Provided the percentage is small - less than about twenty, the VAT on the others will cover the costs.

The military personnel issue will need to be thought about. Perhaps there could be grants to military families to allow them to keep their children at schools in the UK.

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I've listened to numerous people with special needs kids who have said this, and the concern is genuine, and doesn't seem to be addressed by the govt before or after the election. I don't think that makes it impossible to do but rather like the winter fuel allowance withdrawal, I don't think the govts done the work to make this OK for such cases.
Are we claiming that special needs children are not catered for in the state sector? I'm not sure I fully understand the point. But again, if extra money is needed for special needs children to have a private education, that could probably be found. Then again, there may be ways for special needs schools to keep their charity status.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: VAT on private school fees
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2024, 09:29:08 AM »
Are we claiming that special needs children are not catered for in the state sector? I'm not sure I fully understand the point. But again, if extra money is needed for special needs children to have a private education, that could probably be found. Then again, there may be ways for special needs schools to keep their charity status.
There are plenty of state schools that provide outstanding eduction for children with special needs. And there are also plenty of private schools that really don't want special needs children at all as they often depress overall exam results statistics, which are the 'marketing' lifeblood of most private schools. That is not to say that all state schools are good at catering for special needs nor that all private schools are bad. But it is far more complex than 'my kid has special needs so needs to go to a private school'.

But, and this is an important but. As far as I'm aware any child whose special needs are legally recognised (has an EHCP) is exempt from the VAT on private school fees. Any any private special schools (that only cater for children with special needs) are also exempt.

Outrider

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Re: VAT on private school fees
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2024, 09:45:28 AM »
Up front, my kids are in private school. The oldest went because we couldn't find a state school that could deal with his Asperger's without dropping him to a bottom set with disruptive pupils far below his educational capacity. We scraped through on the bones of our arse for four years of primary, tried again at secondary for a year, and then went back to private when that didn't work out.

Our eldest daughter, far more profoundly autistic, went to a series of state special schools, and although we had to threaten to go to a tribunal to get her into the one that operated like a school rather than like an internment camp, we had a relatively easy ride with her, and what she got from those states schools was verging on the miraculous - i'm not aware of any private schools that would have offered what she needed. I spent several years as a governor of one of those special schools after our daughter left, trying to give a little something back.

With our youngest two, having seen the difference in approach between mainstream and private, and in a better financial position, we couldn't really justify sending them to a state school - my wife teaches in the state sector, so we know what's going on behind the scenes there. I'm not a teacher, but I work in the education sector, in a multi-academy trust that deliberately adopts schools in deprived areas, feeling that's the area they can make the most difference in.

Which is all to say that I have insights from most of the viewpoints of both state and private, special education and mainstream, educators and parents - the only real gap I have in the equation is on the government side.

I get the idea that private schooling should be taxed - I disagree, on balance, I think that education is a benefit for society at large, but I understand. Even accepting that, though, introducing a VAT increase in the middle of the school year, on such short notice, would be unnecessarily harsh even if the guidance had been thought out in advance, but it hasn't been. It's not malice, it's incompetence.

More than that, though, there are from what I can see two motivations for the hike - there's the idea that rich people are getting something at the expense of the rest. They aren't, they're paying twice, but the implications of a market-driven economy is that in the main that's a choice only those that can afford it will make. The reality is, though, that with the borderline criminal funding shortfall for education - particularly for special education - that this is not the case. The state sector is struggling to accommodate the students it already has, is dangerously overburdening teachers and  facilities. I've seen nothing in the spending plans and intents for the education sector that says this money will be used for what it's needed for, which is to fund MORE teachers to allow a better balance between teaching and administration within schools, which will allow schools to retain teachers better and allow teachers to step away from the coal-face and make suitable arrangements and lessons for the full range of their student bodies.

The second motivation, and the one that Labour was particularly vocal about early on in their pitching of this, was the perception of private education into areas like the Judiciary, the upper echelons of the Civil Service, and into creative and sporting successes. And there's a great deal of truth to that - as much as the media focusses on privately educated actors making it big, and the number of privately educated Olympians, the effect in the Civil Service is apparently even more pronounced.

However, whilst the dramatic arts and sport draw from a fairly broad range of private education, the people who end up on the Bench, or in Whitehall, or manning Quangoes and quietly getting directorships of semi-autonomous government agencies only come from a small subsection of private education - the Harrows, and Etons and Gordonstouns. I'm privately educated, but the list of famous alumni of my school has one entry after about 1800, and that's a guy who played rugby twice for England-A. That 'old boy's network' is a serious problem, but this VAT imposition is not even not going to address that, if anything it will make it worse. Instead of the potential for those networks to choose from a few hundred other private schools outside of their preferred half-dozen before they turn to the state sector, they'll have fewer options and are therefore likely to draw deeper from those preferred few. Those elite schools are likely to become, if anything, even more entrenched in the recruitment mainline to the top.

That old-boy's network issue is not something that punishing the private education sector as a whole is going to fix, because those establishments are not vulnerable to financial pressures in the same way as the rest of the sector.

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Outrider

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Re: VAT on private school fees
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2024, 09:59:09 AM »
There are plenty of state schools that provide outstanding eduction for children with special needs.

No. No there aren't. There aren't even plenty of special schools, which is why mainstream schools are increasingly being burdened with children they don't have the skill-set to accommodate, compromising not just their education but everyone else's as well. The special schools there are, generally, do fantastic work, but there simply aren't nearly enough of them. Inclusion has been pushed way beyond the point where it's beneficial for anyone except the Treasury.

Whether the need to maintain this is contributing to the underfunding of youth mental health services and, in particular, the lengthy delays in diagnosis of conditions for children, is a question that needs a proper investigation into.

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And there are also plenty of private schools that really don't want special needs children at all as they often depress overall exam results statistics, which are the 'marketing' lifeblood of most private schools.

There are plenty of private schools that don't want special needs children for the same reason state mainstream schools don't, they aren't set up to deal with that sort of need. As to the idea that private schools are somehow uniquely concerned with exam results, I'd say that's not the case from my experience. Private schools tend to pitch themselves, in the main, as offering rounded educations that offer something for everyone, not just the academics chasing grades, and their main selling point tends to be behaviour and attitude - people, particularly at the cheaper end of the private school market, aren't expecting anything different in the teaching, they're expecting their children to be in classes that aren't disrupted by disinterested students lacking parental support that schools can't effectively control. And the private schools don't control them, they get rid of them, which pushes them back into the state sector, which contributes to their struggles, which is why I say I do understand the idea that VAT should be charged on private education, it does benefit from having that 'safety net' of being able to drop children to another provider.

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That is not to say that all state schools are good at catering for special needs nor that all private schools are bad. But it is far more complex than 'my kid has special needs so needs to go to a private school'.

Absolutely.

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But, and this is an important but. As far as I'm aware any child whose special needs are legally recognised (has an EHCP) is exempt from the VAT on private school fees. Any any private special schools (that only cater for children with special needs) are also exempt.

Specifically special needs schools are exempt, and that's an easy classification (at least for now - there are fears that those waters will be muddied in the future), but there are a significant number of special needs children in private education who are still awaiting a diagnosis, and even more who are queued up for the assessment process to start. The lack of a diagnosis because of underfunding in the healthcare sector doesn't change their needs, but it does change their VAT status. One of the worries about the special needs schools is that they don't always require a formal diagnosis, they assess the child, but they are concerned they will be challenged on their status and charged VAT not just for the specific children without a formal diagnosis, but also the various ancillary services, and it's not clear at this stage whether the accompanying abolition of business rates relief will be exempted as well.

O.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: VAT on private school fees
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2024, 11:17:30 AM »
No. No there aren't. There aren't even plenty of special schools, which is why mainstream schools are increasingly being burdened with children they don't have the skill-set to accommodate, compromising not just their education but everyone else's as well. The special schools there are, generally, do fantastic work, but there simply aren't nearly enough of them. Inclusion has been pushed way beyond the point where it's beneficial for anyone except the Treasury.
My previous post was somewhat simplistic, but that was as a response to an even more simplistic assertion that special needs kids need to go to private schools because their needs cannot be provided in the state sector.

But the situation is more complex than you are implying - special needs and kids with an EHCP is a very broad spectrum. While some require the highly specialised provision that can only be found in special schools there are plenty of kids with EHCPs who are not, and should not, be in special schools and the best place for them will be in a mainstream school (whether state or private).

And yes Outrider, there are plenty of state schools that provide an exceptional learning environment for those kids - I can think of plenty around here, including the school where I am a governor. In our most recent intake we had the highest number of EHCPs in the whole county (outside of special schools), specifically because parents of SEND kids want to send them here because we have a (deserved) reputation for providing outstanding education for kids with special needs. There are plenty of schools up and down the country just like mine.

But we (and those other schools) typically aren't dealing with the same special needs that would be the focus of a special school. But our EHCP kids are special needs non-the-less.

Outrider

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Re: VAT on private school fees
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2024, 11:34:04 AM »
My previous post was somewhat simplistic, but that was as a response to an even more simplistic assertion that special needs kids need to go to private schools because their needs cannot be provided in the state sector.

Agreed. I think we're both trying to meet the discussion at the level it's happening - in general, if not specifically here - but the takeaway is probably that it's another situation where there's an awful lot of nuance that's being bypassed in the broader conversation.

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But the situation is more complex than you are implying - special needs and kids with an EHCP is a very broad spectrum.

Absolutely.

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While some require the highly specialised provision that can only be found in special schools there are plenty of kids with EHCPs who are not, and should not, be in special schools and the best place for them will be in a mainstream school (whether state or private).

Yes. My feeling, and the impression I get both from the teachers I work with, and the teachers my wife has and does work with, is that the drive for inclusion has gone too far, and that delineation isn't being made at the correct level. There are some successful dedicated units within mainstream settings where students can get mainstream socialisation but special education provision that works well for some groups, but it's (like everything else) not widespread enough.

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And yes Outrider, there are plenty of state schools that provide an exceptional learning environment for those kids - I can think of plenty around here, including the school where I am a governor. In our most recent intake we had the highest number of EHCPs in the whole county (outside of special schools), specifically because parents of SEND kids want to send them here because we have a (deserved) reputation for providing outstanding education for kids with special needs. There are plenty of schools up and down the country just like mine.

That brings problems of its own - not of the school's making. EHCP's make proscriptions, but central funding rarely covers all of it, which leaves schools scrabbling to make up the shortfall from their general provision - larger schools can manage that, and schools in affluent areas sometimes have other sources of revenue (lettings, parent support groups etc.) to supplement their income, but the smaller schools, and in particular the primaries, don't necessarily have that. That's without even starting on the children that should have an EHCP but don't.

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But we (and those other schools) typically aren't dealing with the same special needs that would be the focus of a special school. But our EHCP kids are special needs non-the-less.

I suspect that, unless you're something of an outlier, you probably are. And, for all the professionalism and dedication that they do show, teachers are sometimes not the best placed people to be making that judgement call - it's a field that retains the dedicated, those that see it as a vocation, those would feel like they were somehow failing if they were to 'reject' a potential student, even if objectively it's not the best placement for them or for the students who would be around them.

O.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: VAT on private school fees
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2024, 01:41:57 PM »
Yes. My feeling, and the impression I get both from the teachers I work with, and the teachers my wife has and does work with, is that the drive for inclusion has gone too far, and that delineation isn't being made at the correct level. There are some successful dedicated units within mainstream settings where students can get mainstream socialisation but special education provision that works well for some groups, but it's (like everything else) not widespread enough.
I agree that there needs to be careful judgement as to the most appropriate setting for a child with special needs - whether that is within a mainstream environment or requires a specialist setting (whether separate to, or embedded within a mainstream stetting).

Now we can discuss whether this is at the right point currently - and there are legitimate arguments in both directions, but my point is that there are plenty of kids who may have an EHCP who are not near that boundary. In the cases I was thinking about there is no reason why those kids shouldn't be in a mainstream environment provided some levels of reasonable adjustment is made (e.g. wheelchair access, moderate hearing or visual impairment). These kids don't need a special school, nor a specialist unit within a mainstream setting. Nope, they simply need mainstream schools to make reasonable adjustments to ensure that they can make progress in their learning to the same extent as their peers. The risk otherwise is that they end up in an environment unable to meet their educational aspirations as many special school settings aren't geared up to deal with high achieving special needs kids.

But this is somewhat drifting away from the thread topic - so worth reiterating that VAT will not apply to pupils with EHCP nor private special schools. Also worth noting that more affluent parents are more likely to be able to obtain EHCPs than people from less affluent backgrounds - because they can throw money at diagnosis etc. Expect a lot more work for private diagnostic work for privately educated pupils with SEN, but without currently an EHCP.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2024, 02:03:33 PM by ProfessorDavey »