Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️

[Dicky Underpants]

Dear Dickie,

Beyond the riches of King Solomon And it is nice to see you appealing to the Heavens, choral singing Atheists, I think you are all really closet Christians, Atheists my erky

Gonnagle.

It's odd that you keep coming out with the kind of stuff that I used to meditate upon for years when I was an 'ecumenical'* believer like yourself (though I never had your gift for whimsy). It took me years to wean myself away from that, along with the brutality of experience. Music remains; God doesn't. My position is that I was deceiving myself before - I suppose you think that I, the Prof and blue  are deceiving ourselves now (and that Berlioz etc did before)
* 'syncretic' - there's another posh word.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Prof,

I love it when you argue with the academicals, up there in their lofty towers, looking down on us mere mortals, how's your lofty tower Prof

'Children were asked whether their mother would know the contents of a box in which she could not see. Children aged three believed that their mother and God would always know the contents, but by the age of four, children start to understand that their mothers are not all-seeing and all knowing.'

They were told about God but that's not the point, they were born with that innate feeling, not the fact about God, the feeling, it is bloody evolution at its best, just like the brain scans you pooh poohed earlier, it is already up there.

Homo religious, I am right now away and argue with those fellows from Oxford, bloody know it all's.

Gonnagle.

[Gonnagle]

It's odd that you keep coming out with the kind of stuff that I used to meditate upon for years when I was an 'ecumenical' believer like yourself (though I never had your gift for whimsy). It took me years to wean myself away from that, along with the brutality of experience. Music remains; God doesn't. My position is that I was deceiving myself before - I suppose you think that I, the Prof and blue  are deceiving ourselves now (and that Berlioz etc did before)

Dear Dickie,

Gift for whimsy, is there a cure, anyway, deceiving is such a harsh word, so this is just me, my very personal opinion, no reference to any books or links, just me, Atheists to me come across as we have all the answers, they seem so convinced, any mention of God and it is "unleash the dogs of war " and when I try to ease some sense of where you are coming from, I meet a very closed door, this was why I praised the good Prof in a earlier post, he nearly let me in, for me Atheists don't look at the bigger picture, you deny God when there is not a man alive who can come close to describing what God is.

You can deny the God of the Torah, The Bible, the Koran or any other religious book, all wonderful books full of wisdom, but at the end of the day just man thoughts on God, for me personally you don't find God in a book, you find him within✝️

Gonnagle.

[Maeght]

Dear Prof,

I love it when you argue with the academicals, up there in their lofty towers, looking down on us mere mortals, how's your lofty tower Prof

'Children were asked whether their mother would know the contents of a box in which she could not see. Children aged three believed that their mother and God would always know the contents, but by the age of four, children start to understand that their mothers are not all-seeing and all knowing.'

They were told about God but that's not the point, they were born with that innate feeling, not the fact about God, the feeling, it is bloody evolution at its best, just like the brain scans you pooh poohed earlier, it is already up there.

Homo religious, I am right now away and argue with those fellows from Oxford, bloody know it all's.

Gonnagle.

You can't necessarily conclude that a child is born with an innate feeling based on what a 3 year old says. They have had 3 years of learning.

[ProfessorDavey]

They were told about God but that's not the point, they were born with that innate feeling, not the fact about God, the feeling...

Nope it is exactly the point - there is no innate feeling, it is learned behavour, pure and simple.

Does a new born baby have an innate feeling of god - nope.

If a new born baby was brought up in a society where the term god and the concept of god was never mentioned, would they at age three conclude that god knows what's in the box - nope.

If a new born baby was brought up in a society where they are routinely told that their leader has special powers and knows everything, would they they at age three conclude that Kim Jun Un knows what's in the box - sure they would.

Learned behaviour - and the point about learned behaviour is that it isn't innate.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Maeght,

Oh dear, never mind, its pasta and crusty bread for tea, lovely

Gonnagle.

[ProfessorDavey]

You can't necessarily conclude that a child is born with an innate feeling based on what a 3 year old says. They have had 3 years of learning.

Absolutely - which is why many people consider all new borns to be atheist as they do not believe in god because they have no notion of the concept of god. Now I'm not a fan of that view as it seems too broad - to me an atheist (to have any meaning) needs to be something that has an understanding of the proposed concept of god but does not believe that god exists.

[Gonnagle]

Absolutely - which is why many people consider all new borns to be atheist as they do not believe in god because they have no notion of the concept of god. Now I'm not a fan of that view as it seems too broad - to me an atheist (to have any meaning) needs to be something that has an understanding of the proposed concept of god but does not believe that god exists.

Dear Prof,

My last words on the subject for this evening

They have no notion of God, correct, but they are hot wired to believe. It is a human thing, a evolutionary thing, forget God, you Atheists are fixated, you put us Christians to shame

Gonnagle.

[ProfessorDavey]

They have no notion of God, correct, but they are hot wired to believe.

Then how do explain the fact that children brought up in non religious households almost never end up believers as adults. Surely if they were 'hot wired' to believe then their household upbringing should have no impact their hot-wire would bring them to believe in due course. But it doesn't.

So the evidence suggests the opposite - that humans are hot wired not to believe and the only way to make people believe is to instil belief in them from an early age. This religions across the globe know very well, hence their rituals to inculcate belief into the young and impressionable (which would be completely unnecessary if belief were hot-wired).

[Gordon]

Dear Prof,

My last words on the subject for this evening

They have no notion of God, correct, but they are hot wired to believe. It is a human thing, a evolutionary thing, forget God, you Atheists are fixated, you put us Christians to shame

Gonnagle.

I don't think I'm either fixated or hot-wired to believe.

I see religion as a human trait that appeals to some but not to others (like me) - my disdain for religion(s) is equivalent to my disdain for sport in general, and especially all the paraphernalia and special terminology that both religions and sports have (in spades). To me they are all variations of codified nonsense.

However, provided that I'm not required to take either seriously, and provided neither is unduly intrusive, then fine. I am adept at avoiding church services and sporting events.

[Maeght]

Dear Prof,

My last words on the subject for this evening

They have no notion of God, correct, but they are hot wired to believe. It is a human thing, a evolutionary thing, forget God, you Atheists are fixated, you put us Christians to shame

Gonnagle.

I have never believed in God or gods. I grew up in a cultural Christian family and did all the cultural religious stuff but never actually believed in any of it.

[ProfessorDavey]

I have never believed in God or gods. I grew up in a cultural Christian family and did all the cultural religious stuff but never actually believed in any of it.

Ah but gonners says that cannot be true - you were hot-wired to believe.

But of course you are right - that's what the evidence suggests.

There is pretty well zero change of believing as an adult unless you were brought up to belief.

But even being brought up to believe is a poor predictor of belief as an adult with about 50% of kids in the UK who were brought up in a religious household rejecting that upbringing and not believing as adults.

So Gonners seems we are hot wired not to believe and try as they might with all that ritual, inculcation etc etc religions still generate as many non-believing adults as they do believing ones.

[torridon]

Dear Prof,

My last words on the subject for this evening

They have no notion of God, correct, but they are hot wired to believe. It is a human thing, a evolutionary thing, forget God, you Atheists are fixated, you put us Christians to shame

Gonnagle.

'Hot wired' for agent detection and superstition more like. Religion is, in part, a cultural child of superstition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_detection

[Sriram]

Ah but gonners says that cannot be true - you were hot-wired to believe.

But of course you are right - that's what the evidence suggests.

There is pretty well zero change of believing as an adult unless you were brought up to belief.

But even being brought up to believe is a poor predictor of belief as an adult with about 50% of kids in the UK who were brought up in a religious household rejecting that upbringing and not believing as adults.

So Gonners seems we are hot wired not to believe and try as they might with all that ritual, inculcation etc etc religions still generate as many non-believing adults as they do believing ones.

Belief or disbelief probably depends on the broader cultural environment rather than only on the family environment.  It also probably depends to an extent on Implicit pattern learning and the ability of individuals to recognise hidden patterns in their own lives.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/09/200909085942.htm

**********

Individuals who can unconsciously predict complex patterns, an ability called implicit pattern learning, are likely to hold stronger beliefs that there is a god who creates patterns of events in the universe, according to neuroscientists at Georgetown University.

**********

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Then how do explain the fact that children brought up in non religious households almost never end up believers as adults.

Indoctrination, punishment, being dragged of to the psychiatrist if expressing any religious leaning, a combination of all of these perhaps. As usual a veiled argumentum ad populum. Moderate atheist or antitheist parents are after all prone to the same leanings you attribute to religious parents...

Or do you consider yourself speshil?

* Moderator: quote tags fixed.

[Maeght]

Then how do explain the fact that children brought up in non religious households almost never end up believers as adults.

Indoctrination, punishment, being dragged of to the psychiatrist if expressing any religious leaning, a combination of all of these perhaps. As usual a veiled argumentum ad populum. Moderate atheist or antitheist parents are after all prone to the same leanings you attribute to religious parents...

'punishment, being dragged of to the psychiatrist if expressing any religious leaning' Do you really think any of that happens?

* Moderator: quote tags fixed.

[ekim]

...... for me personally you don't find God in a book, you find him within✝️

That's a bit sexist isn't it.  Anyway God is definitely a 'her'.  Heaven wouldn't be Heaven otherwise.

[Enki]

Indoctrination, punishment, being dragged of to the psychiatrist if expressing any religious leaning, a combination of all of these perhaps. As usual a veiled argumentum ad populum. Moderate atheist or antitheist parents are after all prone to the same leanings you attribute to religious parents...

Or do you consider yourself speshil?

* Moderator: quote tags fixed.

What strange assumptions on your part, Vlad, and certainly not the case for me. My father was interested in spiritualism but neither my mother or father was particularly religious. Consequentially the idea of a god has never had any personal importance or meaning for me and I was able to come to my own conclusions. It was much later that I discovered that there was no objective evidence for any god, long before Dawkins came on the scene, by the way.

[ProfessorDavey]

What strange assumptions on your part, Vlad, and certainly not the case for me. My father was interested in spiritualism but neither my mother or father was particularly religious. Consequentially the idea of a god has never had any personal importance or meaning for me and I was able to come to my own conclusions. It was much later that I discovered that there was no objective evidence for any god, long before Dawkins came on the scene, by the way.

I agree - Vlad really has no idea how most non-religious households operate. Typically religion just isn't a thing, something that has no active part in that household, something that just isn't important. There is no anti-religious propaganda, no non-religious indoctrination - nope religion is simply something that family doesn't do. Religion simply isn't an important aspect (positive or negative) in that household. A bit like households who don't go to Opera or households that don't go horse riding etc etc.

And I imagine my upbringing is pretty common - broadly non-religious (albeit with the late 60s, early 70s societal mood music that default there was a god and default that god was the christian god). My parents didn't go to church although there was some pressure from their parents to 'bring their boys up christian' - so we did occasionally attend church if visiting grandparents and I was (very briefly) sent to Sunday school (presumably a sop to the grandparents). But that petered out rapidly as my parents just weren't interested.

Did my parents rant against religion - nope. Did they do anything active to discourage me from being religious - nope. Religion was simply something that wasn't a part of our household or my upbringing.

But here is the interesting thing - whether god existed was so not a part of my upbringing, that it was only in the last few years of my father's life that I discovered that he didn't believe in god and he discovered that I didn't believe in god - and that we'd respectively not believed in god for decades without knowing the position of the other. Nor interestingly did my mother (although she once claimed to be pantheist). Now that might seem weird to Vlad who thinks all atheists constantly bang on about their non-belief. But we don't - the point being that our non belief was a personal matter, not something that impacted on our lives or our relationship, so why would we necessarily bring this up as a conversation.

[ProfessorDavey]

Belief or disbelief probably depends on the broader cultural environment rather than only on the family environment.  It also probably depends to an extent on Implicit pattern learning and the ability of individuals to recognise hidden patterns in their own lives.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/09/200909085942.htm

**********

Individuals who can unconsciously predict complex patterns, an ability called implicit pattern learning, are likely to hold stronger beliefs that there is a god who creates patterns of events in the universe, according to neuroscientists at Georgetown University.

**********

Interesting but doesn't really address Gonner's nature vs nurture claims - so it may be that people who develop better pattern recognition (i.e. nurture) are more likely to believe in god, rather than better pattern recognition being an innate inherited trait.

But there is another interesting point hidden in the article (my emphasis):

'The data suggest that if children are unconsciously picking up on patterns in the environment, their belief is more likely to increase as they grow up, even if they are in a nonreligious household. Likewise, if they are not unconsciously picking up on patterns around them, their belief is more likely to decrease as they grow up, even in a religious household.'

But we know that children brought up in a religious household are way, way more likely to turn away from religion as adults compared to those brought up in a non-religious household turning towards religion.

So what isn't in the article is the proportions of high pattern recognition vs low pattern recognition children - but for the data on 'conversation' away from childhood upbringing (whether religious or non religious) to be consistent with their findings then there must be far, far more low pattern recognition children, primed to reject religion as adults (even if brought up in a religious household) than high pattern recognition children, primed to accept religion as adults (even if brought up in a non-religious household).

[Sriram]

Interesting but doesn't really address Gonner's nature vs nurture claims - so it may be that people who develop better pattern recognition (i.e. nurture) are more likely to believe in god, rather than better pattern recognition being an innate inherited trait.

But there is another interesting point hidden in the article (my emphasis):

'The data suggest that if children are unconsciously picking up on patterns in the environment, their belief is more likely to increase as they grow up, even if they are in a nonreligious household. Likewise, if they are not unconsciously picking up on patterns around them, their belief is more likely to decrease as they grow up, even in a religious household.'

But we know that children brought up in a religious household are way, way more likely to turn away from religion as adults compared to those brought up in a non-religious household turning towards religion.

So what isn't in the article is the proportions of high pattern recognition vs low pattern recognition children - but for the data on 'conversation' away from childhood upbringing (whether religious or non religious) to be consistent with their findings then there must be far, far more low pattern recognition children, primed to reject religion as adults (even if brought up in a religious household) than high pattern recognition children, primed to accept religion as adults (even if brought up in a non-religious household).

Yes....it is possible that the percentage of pattern recognizing children is much less than the non recognizing ones. Natural and spontaneous believers would be far less than natural non believers.

[Gordon]

I grew up without any family involvement in religion whatsoever: it wasn't a factor in my family life at all.

I was born in 1952, at a time most when babies were routinely baptised/christened (not sure what the correct term is) - but I wasn't. It was a minor issue at primary school, where my not being 'anything' meant that I sat out RE/RI lessons, and I was given 'something useful' to do instead.

My secondary education was in England (St Albans to be precise) and I remember my father taking me there about 2 weeks before the summer holidays began, in 1964, to enrol me and that I wasn't christened/baptised threw them a bit: again I was allowed to skip RE/RI classes (along with a couple of RC kids) and we were instructed to go to the library and study. Unlike at my primary school in Scotland, they did have a daily school assembly there that involved prayers and hymns. I was told that I must attend assembly but that I was not required to participate in hymns and prayers unless I wanted to, and if not I was to be respectfully quiet. I didn't participate, since being the only kid in school who was excused hymns and prayers was too good to miss! I think that the first time I ever heard hymns being sung was at those assemblies.

In those days I wasn't really curious about what Christianity involved and in my later teenage years, when I did become more aware from friends whose families were religious, I found the whole thing to be unbelievable nonsense - which is still my view. 

[ProfessorDavey]

Yes....it is possible that the percentage of pattern recognizing children is much less than the non recognizing ones.

True and that would perhaps be the most interesting finding - specifically whether a tendency towards loss of belief from child to adult or gain in belief predominates within a society.

Natural and spontaneous believers would be far less than natural non believers.

Nope - you've overstretched now. The article is completely silent as to whether pattern recognition (and therefore the link to belief) is innate or learned. There is no suggestion that the ability to recognise patterns isn't something some of the children had learned more effectively than others.

[ProfessorDavey]

I grew up without any family involvement in religion whatsoever: it wasn't a factor in my family life at all.

I was born in 1952, at a time most when babies were routinely baptised/christened (not sure what the correct term is) - but I wasn't. It was a minor issue at primary school, where my not being 'anything' meant that I sat out RE/RI lessons, and I was given 'something useful' to do instead.

My secondary education was in England (St Albans to be precise) and I remember my father taking me there about 2 weeks before the summer holidays began, in 1964, to enrol me and that I wasn't christened/baptised threw them a bit: again I was allowed to skip RE/RI classes (along with a couple of RC kids) and we were instructed to go to the library and study. Unlike at my primary school in Scotland, they did have a daily school assembly there that involved prayers and hymns. I was told that I must attend assembly but that I was not required to participate in hymns and prayers unless I wanted to, and if not I was to be respectfully quiet. I didn't participate, since being the only kid in school who was excused hymns and prayers was too good to miss! I think that the first time I ever heard hymns being sung was at those assemblies.

In those days I wasn't really curious about what Christianity involved and in my later teenage years, when I did become more aware from friends whose families were religious, I found the whole thing to be unbelievable nonsense - which is still my view.

I think your upbringing was a bit more overtly non-religious than mine.

So first I was baptised - largely because that was just the norm back then and I don't think my parents really considered there was an alternative.

Also I was never removed from any RE/assemblies etc. I think my parents were pretty relaxed about all this and just left it up to the school. So I was expected to squeeze my eyes shut, clasp my hands tightly together and trot out the prayers that were a part of daily assemblies, particularly at my (non-faith) primary school, also in St Albans. Likewise sing the often rather trite hymns.

Upthread I was talking about choral singing - well actually this stems from my secondary school experience. Quite early on I was consider to have a 'good voice' so was enrolled in the choir (not sure I remember having any real choice). But from that point onwards I began to be exposed to all sorts of great music (not the trite non-sense in primary school). Much of this was sacred/religious - including carols at christmas, stuff like Zadoc the Priest and some much more challenging stuff, including Britten's Chidren's Crusade. My music teacher (an Australian who looked like Rasputin) also wrote his own stuff which was quite discordant (parents hated it and I don't think I really got it at the time). Anyhow I sung through school, ending up in small barbershop-type groups, but then stopped shortly after going to university, as I briefly ended up in a choir way beyond my abilities which knocked my confidence.

Anyhow I came back to singing some 30 years later.

[ad_orientem]

Dear Dickie,

Gift for whimsy, is there a cure, anyway, deceiving is such a harsh word, so this is just me, my very personal opinion, no reference to any books or links, just me, Atheists to me come across as we have all the answers, they seem so convinced, any mention of God and it is "unleash the dogs of war " and when I try to ease some sense of where you are coming from, I meet a very closed door, this was why I praised the good Prof in a earlier post, he nearly let me in, for me Atheists don't look at the bigger picture, you deny God when there is not a man alive who can come close to describing what God is.

You can deny the God of the Torah, The Bible, the Koran or any other religious book, all wonderful books full of wisdom, but at the end of the day just man thoughts on God, for me personally you don't find God in a book, you find him within✝️

Gonnagle.

Maybe or maybe not. It's hard to explain. Looking back, when I was a "believer", I think I was trying to convince myself more than I was ever trying to convince others. There was always an element of doubt in me, in that respect.