Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️

[Sriram]

True and that would perhaps be the most interesting finding - specifically whether a tendency towards loss of belief from child to adult or gain in belief predominates within a society.
Nope - you've overstretched now. The article is completely silent as to whether pattern recognition (and therefore the link to belief) is innate or learned. There is no suggestion that the ability to recognise patterns isn't something some of the children had learned more effectively than others.

AI information...

"Implicit pattern recognition, the unconscious ability to identify and learn patterns, is generally considered to be an innate ability with some degree of individual variation. While experience and learning undoubtedly refine and strengthen this ability, the underlying capacity appears to be present from a young age."

[ProfessorDavey]

AI information...

"Implicit pattern recognition, the unconscious ability to identify and learn patterns, is generally considered to be an innate ability with some degree of individual variation. While experience and learning undoubtedly refine and strengthen this ability, the underlying capacity appears to be present from a young age."

Which isn't tested in the study - so we are none the wiser as to whether the difference is nature (difference in innate ability) or whether differences are due to variation in how that ability is strengthened or refined through childhood.

That AI piece suggests that all kids from a young age have this innate ability (and with little variation) in which case differences in older children would be most likely due to differences in refining and strengthening that ability.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I agree - Vlad really has no idea how most non-religious households operate.

And neither I would imagine do you or anyone in fact since the intimate details probably appear only as anecdotal...Nice try, but you are committing the genetic fallacy that most religious households are this or most non religious households are that

Typically religion just isn't a thing, something that has no active part in that household, something that just isn't important. There is no anti-religious propaganda, no non-religious indoctrination - nope religion is simply something that family doesn't do. Religion simply isn't an important aspect (positive or negative) in that household. A bit like households who don't go to Opera or households that don't go horse riding etc etc.

And yet there would,I imagine be some kind of response when the jehovah's witnesses knock and at such moments the parental position on religion is writ large.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I grew up without any family involvement in religion whatsoever: it wasn't a factor in my family life at all.

I was born in 1952, at a time most when babies were routinely baptised/christened (not sure what the correct term is) - but I wasn't. It was a minor issue at primary school, where my not being 'anything' meant that I sat out RE/RI lessons, and I was given 'something useful' to do instead.

My secondary education was in England (St Albans to be precise) and I remember my father taking me there about 2 weeks before the summer holidays began, in 1964, to enrol me and that I wasn't christened/baptised threw them a bit: again I was allowed to skip RE/RI classes (along with a couple of RC kids) and we were instructed to go to the library and study. Unlike at my primary school in Scotland, they did have a daily school assembly there that involved prayers and hymns. I was told that I must attend assembly but that I was not required to participate in hymns and prayers unless I wanted to, and if not I was to be respectfully quiet. I didn't participate, since being the only kid in school who was excused hymns and prayers was too good to miss! I think that the first time I ever heard hymns being sung was at those assemblies.

In those days I wasn't really curious about what Christianity involved and in my later teenage years, when I did become more aware from friends whose families were religious, I found the whole thing to be unbelievable nonsense - which is still my view.

Did anyone pull strings for you to miss R.E.?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

We don't inherit it as a hereditary trait - i.e. via genes. It is nurture not nature.

What we do inherit is the ability to learn through our complex neurophysiology. We then need to establish complex societal structures to ensure that generational learning is effective as that learning and our ability to use that learning is what provides the evolutionary advantage. Those societal structures are also required to protect human offspring for many years while they remain exquisitely vulnerable. If those complex societal structures are not established then learning cannot take, nor is there protection for the young meaning they are unlikely to survive to breed.

So religion is learned behaviour in the same way as learning that certain plants are dangerous or that lack of hygiene leads to disease transmission etc etc. That doesn't mean it isn't important for human survival and evolutionary advantage (although I think it is the complex societal structures rather than religion per se), but that doesn't mean it isn't learned behaviour.

So how are you with the saying that "Religion is caught, not taught"? That certainly is more in keeping with the memeticist outlook where religion is a bad meme or virus. Surely that's where your sentiments lie Professor.

[Gordon]

Did anyone pull strings for you to miss R.E.?

Not that I am aware of: I can't remember the primary school stuff but I clearly remember the secondary school situation - it seems that I simply wasn't qualified.

[Dicky Underpants]

for me personally you don't find God in a book, you find him within✝️

Gonnagle.

That's just where I didn't find him, and that was the clincher. A couple of times before I thought I had, but when the worst came, not a peep.
Books help to clarify matters.

[ProfessorDavey]

And neither I would imagine do you or anyone in fact since the intimate details probably appear only as anecdotal...Nice try, but you are committing the genetic fallacy that most religious households are this or most non religious households are that

Stop shifting the burden of proof Vlad.

You were the one claiming that Indoctrination, punishment, being dragged of to the psychiatrist if expressing any religious leaning were somehow commonplace in non-religious households. I think you are talking complete bollox, but that is irrelevant. You're claim, your burden of proof.

And yet there would,I imagine be some kind of response when the jehovah's witnesses knock and at such moments the parental position on religion is writ large.

Actually I suspect the response would be classic british - in other words a somewhat apologetic 'err no thanks' with the intention of getting them to move onto the next house as quickly as possible. I think it unlikely that a non-religious person would even contemplate trying some engagement. But the response would be similar to any unwanted 'door to door salesmen'. And by the way non-JW religious people will probably give JW similar short shrift.

And the response to those little evangelical fliers that get pushed through the door - rant, angrily shout, theatrically rip them up? Of course not, quietly pick up from the doormat, glance to see what it is and then pop over to the recycling bin.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That's just where I didn't find him, and that was the clincher. A couple of times before I thought I had, but when the worst came, not a peep.
Books help to clarify matters.

What books.

[ProfessorDavey]

Did anyone pull strings for you to miss R.E.?

I would hope not given that RE is a topic where parents have a legal right to remove their child should they wish to. Same with religious assemblies. Although I suspect very few parents actually do remove their child.

Some anecdata - my wife spent many years as a primary school teacher, in both faith schools (CofE and RCC) and non-faith schools. Just once did she have a parent who asked for their child to be removed from RE. Clearly in your weird view this must be some Dawkins-esque anti-theist. Not a bit - the family were evangelical christians and wanted their child to be removed from any RE lessons that covered non-christian religions. They then kicked up a stink when the school planned an RE-based trip to a local hindu temple - not just removing their child (which of course they were legally entitled to do) but also wanting the whole trip to be cancelled for everyone.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Not that I am aware of: I can't remember the primary school stuff but I clearly remember the secondary school situation - it seems that I simply wasn't qualified.

I only ask since my experience as a pupil, parent and in school governance it is the parent ot guardian that requests it rather than leaving it to the pupil.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Stop shifting the burden of proof Vlad.

You were the one claiming that Indoctrination, punishment, being dragged of to the psychiatrist if expressing any religious leaning were somehow commonplace in non-religious households. I think you are talking complete bollox, but that is irrelevant. You're claim, your burden of proof.
Actually I suspect the response would be classic british - in other words a somewhat apologetic 'err no thanks' with the intention of getting them to move onto the next house as quickly as possible. I think it unlikely that a non-religious person would even contemplate trying some engagement. But the response would be similar to any unwanted 'door to door salesmen'. And by the way non-JW religious people will probably give JW similar short shrift.

And the response to those little evangelical fliers that get pushed through the door - rant, angrily shout, theatrically rip them up? Of course not, quietly pick up from the doormat, glance to see what it is and then pop over to the recycling bin.

I only claimed indoctrination, punishment and psychiatric concern  goes on in non religious houses because that is a prior claim on the part of on line professed atheists and on the basis that it would be unlikely only to occur in religious households.
You consider religion to be a matter of mere indoctrination.
I have got no idea of what goes on in most households and any stories of people being dragged to psychiatry I've heard are merely anecdotal.

[Gordon]

I only ask since my experience as a pupil, parent and in school governance it is the parent ot guardian that requests it rather than leaving it to the pupil.

Well this was over 60 years ago, Vlad, and my clear recollection of the secondary school situation is that since I wasn't baptised as a Christian, and since I wasn't a member of any other religion, obviously had no links to the CofE (having just been abducted from Scotland in the previous fortnight), they didn't know what to do with me as regards RE/RI.

My father took the view that since I had no religious affiliation whatsoever, and no background in Christianity, that it wouldn't be relevant for me to do RE/RI - and the school agreed with that (or saw it as a way out).

It was possibly the only useful thing my father ever did for me (apart from teaching me how to make paper aeroplanes).

[ProfessorDavey]

I only claimed indoctrination, punishment and psychiatric concern  goes on in non religious houses because that is a prior claim on the part of on line professed atheists and on the basis that it would be unlikely only to occur in religious households.
You consider religion to be a matter of mere indoctrination.
I have got no idea of what goes on in most households and any stories of people being dragged to psychiatry I've heard are merely anecdotal.

So - to conclude.

You have absolutely no evidence to support your claim that Indoctrination, punishment, being dragged of to the psychiatrist if expressing any religious leaning were somehow commonplace in non-religious households.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Thread,

Oh nooo!! What's happening some of the God dodgers are actually opening up, showing their human side, stop it's all to much now is it because it is Holy week, are we witnessing miracles, quick someone pass around the collection tin ( no Queen Victoria fivers Gordon & Prof ).

Anyway you wonderful God dodgers, enjoy your very Christian bank holiday weekend, don't forget to thank Our Lord Jesus Christ✝️✝️✝️

Gonnagle.

[ProfessorDavey]

Dear Thread,

Oh nooo!! What's happening some of the God dodgers are actually opening up, showing their human side, stop it's all to much now is it because it is Holy week, are we witnessing miracles, quick someone pass around the collection tin ( no Queen Victoria fivers Gordon & Prof ).

Anyway you wonderful God dodgers, enjoy your very Christian bank holiday weekend, don't forget to thank Our Lord Jesus Christ✝️✝️✝️

Gonnagle.

Don't think there's anything I've shared in the past few posts that I haven't shared before Gonners.

Oh and we are no more god-dodging than you are Thor-dodging, or Leprechaun-dodging.

And the Easter bank holiday is named after ... err ... a pagan spring goddess (ducks and takes cover). So wishing you a very special long bank holiday weekend to celebrate the spring.

[Maeght]

Dear Thread,

Oh nooo!! What's happening some of the God dodgers are actually opening up, showing their human side, stop it's all to much now is it because it is Holy week, are we witnessing miracles, quick someone pass around the collection tin ( no Queen Victoria fivers Gordon & Prof ).

Anyway you wonderful God dodgers, enjoy your very Christian bank holiday weekend, don't forget to thank Our Lord Jesus Christ✝️✝️✝️

Gonnagle.

I've said what I said several times on here before.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Don't think there's anything I've shared in the past few posts that I haven't shared before Gonners.

Oh and we are no more god-dodging than you are Thor-dodging, or Leprechaun-dodging.

And the Easter bank holiday is named after ... err ... a pagan spring goddess (ducks and takes cover). So wishing you a very special long bank holiday weekend to celebrate the spring.

I freely admit I am Thor dodging on the grounds I find polytheism leaves many unanswered questions and was a science substitute and Leprechauns which are at the root of antitheisms bare face and hateful use of the horses laugh fantasy and little green irishmen have not presented themselves to me although I did have a boss once.
In terms of theophobia, If your treatment of theists matches that which homophobes treat guys and gay issues I.e. with the same disdain, then you are theophobic.

[Gordon]

In terms of theophobia, If your treatment of theists matches that which homophobes treat guys and gay issues I.e. with the same disdain, then you are theophobic.

Do you ever stop and think about how what you write might be understood by your readers?

The conflation you make between those of us who simply dismiss theism out-of-hand and the very real discrimination experienced by people who are gay is both simplistic and a wee bit offensive. The notion that atheists like me are 'theophobic' is laughable, since by definition there is nothing for atheists to be scared of in terms of divine agency, and I'd imagine that most atheists manage to easily avoid encountering theistic activities.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Do you ever stop and think about how what you write might be understood by your readers?

The conflation you make between those of us who simply dismiss theism out-of-hand and the very real discrimination experienced by people who are gay is both simplistic and a wee bit offensive. The notion that atheists like me are 'theophobic' is laughable, since by definition there is nothing for atheists to be scared of in terms of divine agency, and I'd imagine that most atheists manage to easily avoid encountering theistic activities.

Not all atheists are theophobic I grant.

A simple test though would be to substitute the word theism with the word gay, or black, or trans or feminism and see how it reads.

[Gordon]

Not all atheists are theophobic I grant.

A simple test though would be to substitute the word theism with the word gay, or black, or trans or feminism and see how it reads.

That sounds like a bit of a category error - you seem to be conflating philosophical beliefs with the biological attributes of people.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That sounds like a bit of a category error - you seem to be conflating philosophical beliefs with the biological attributes of people.

As I said to start with. If your treatment of theists is commensurate with how homophobes treat gay and gay issues you are a theophobe. That is uncontroversial, surely.

[Gordon]

As I said to start with. If your treatment of theists is commensurate with how homophobes treat gay and gay issues you are a theophobe. That is uncontroversial, surely.

No - it's incoherent since you are conflating stuff that shouldn't be conflated, as I pointed out earlier.

I'm not aware that any of the atheists here favour discriminating against theists as a general maxim.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No - it's incoherent since you are conflating stuff that shouldn't be conflated, as I pointed out earlier.

I'm not aware that any of the atheists here favour discriminating against theists as a general maxim.

The treatment of theists as mentally abberant or simple or emotionally impaired does constitute theophobia I'm afraid as does treating them as peculiarly evil.

[Gordon]

The treatment of theists as mentally abberant or simple or emotionally impaired does constitute theophobia I'm afraid as does treating them as peculiarly evil.

How many atheists have you encountered here who treat theists are being aberrant or emotionally impaired? I can't think of one.