Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Probably not, seeing as a deist usually thinks that god has left the universe to run on its own. But, it depends on the deist, I suppose.

No problem.

See my first answer.

Anything's possible, I suppose.

I think you probably know my personal response. My gut feeling is that the idea of God has no specific meaning or significance for me. However, because gut feelings cannot be relied upon, when analysing the subject further, I find no evidence that any god actually exists.

That sounds like your intellectual stance, though and by meaning we are talking about reasoned thoughts. I would of course like to hear how you arrive at that.

Something more emotive and heartfelt though MOVES you to contribute to this board, in other words something like a sense of justice or concern.....or fear and dislike.Something that transcends this apparent insignificance of God you talk about.

[ProfessorDavey]

Goddodge is a bit of a blunt instrument term to describe a human state that may or may not involve deliberation but rather a more visceral reaction.

Nope - it is a pejorative term used by some theists in an attempt to denigrate atheists, on the basis that we are somehow deliberately avoiding something that deep down we know exists. That simple isn't true - deep down we do not believe god exists and therefore the notion that we are avoiding (whether deliberately or otherwise) is completely moot.

One can contemplate how they would react if they encountered God or avoid to do even that for fear God might somehow get through.

Well if I did encounter god I would, of course, change my mind and become theist. But that has never happened in my nearly 59 years and I cannot see any credible evidence to support the claim that god exists. Hence I'm an atheist and I cannot therefore be dodging something that I do not believe is there.

[Enki]

That sounds like your intellectual stance, though and by meaning we are talking about reasoned thoughts. I would of course like to hear how you arrive at that.

Something more emotive and heartfelt though MOVES you to contribute to this board, in other words something like a sense of justice or concern.....or fear and dislike.Something that transcends this apparent insignificance of God you talk about.

Well, I cannot remember a time when the idea of god was of any importance to me. It wasn't reasoned at all. I just used to look at a person praying and wondered who or what they were praying to. later I developed an interest in Comparative Religion(indeed I still own a 1961 copy of Comparative religion by E.O.James.) So, I suppose I developed an interest in religions and faiths very early on. I am always curious as to what interests and drives people so I suppose that was part of that curiosity. My stance hasn't changed. If someone has a personal faith, that's ok by me, as long as it doesn't harm anyone particularly.

So, I think my coming to this forum was simply me, being curious, and me being willing to learn about what moves others on this forum. It progressed into meeting and making friends with some of the members(Horsethorn, Grantus Maximus- you might remember them) who, incidentally had completely different opinions to my own. For me, my life has been about trying to expand my horizons, understanding and appreciating what is important to me and trying to live a balanced and happy life. The idea of god(s) has no particular part in this.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Enki,

Thank you❤️

""Comparative Religion: An Introductory and Historical Study"" is a comprehensive book written by E.O. James. The book provides an in-depth analysis of different religions and their historical development. The author explores the similarities and differences between various religious traditions, including Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The book is divided into two parts. The first part focuses on the origins and development of religion, while the second part examines the major religions of the world. The author provides detailed information on the beliefs, practices, and rituals of each religion, as well as their historical context and influence on society.Throughout the book, the author emphasizes the importance of understanding and respecting different religious traditions. He encourages readers to approach religion with an open mind and to appreciate the diversity of beliefs and practices that exist in the world. Overall, ""Comparative Religion: An Introductory and Historical Study"" is a valuable resource for anyone interested in learning more about different religions and their place in human history and culture.

Sounds like my kind of book, did anything stand out for you reading this book, did the author offer any major thoughts on the subject.

Gonnagle.

[Dicky Underpants]

Dear Thread,

Well after much musing and soul searching ( yes its painful ) the whole question of God no God is ego that's it, pure ego on both sides, but ( always a damn but ) the God dodgers honest stance should be Agnostic❤️

Anyway Dear Fellow Posters the very wonderful Nina Simone is telling me she is feeling good✝️

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHRNrgDIJfo

Gonnagle.

Dear Gonners

To be laconic: bollocks.
Some here are truly concerned about the omnipresence of suffering, and all of us have suffered to a greater or lesser extent. And many think that intellectual arguments are a way to resolve some of this, rather than just saying 'goddidit'  (of course some say that we need a devil as well for the full explanation)
Of course, some of us "come out from the same door wherein I went" (Omar Khayyam). I felt a bit like that after ploughing through almost all the works of Nietzsche in my twenties. *
However, there are casualties on the true believers side too (ad_orientem here is one such). Such people realise, like A.N. Wilson, that the search for God is a wild goose chase.

P.S. if you mean 'agnostic' in the original Huxley sense of "Humans have no knowledge except of phenomena", then I agree with you.
If you mean non-believers should be saying simply "I don't know" - well that's not any kind of philosophy to live by.

*After that I ended up as a sort of theist. Not any more.

[Dicky Underpants]

Dear Enki,

Thank you❤️

""Comparative Religion: An Introductory and Historical Study"" is a comprehensive book written by E.O. James. The book provides an in-depth analysis of different religions and their historical development. The author explores the similarities and differences between various religious traditions, including Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The book is divided into two parts. The first part focuses on the origins and development of religion, while the second part examines the major religions of the world. The author provides detailed information on the beliefs, practices, and rituals of each religion, as well as their historical context and influence on society.Throughout the book, the author emphasizes the importance of understanding and respecting different religious traditions. He encourages readers to approach religion with an open mind and to appreciate the diversity of beliefs and practices that exist in the world. Overall, ""Comparative Religion: An Introductory and Historical Study"" is a valuable resource for anyone interested in learning more about different religions and their place in human history and culture.

Sounds like my kind of book, did anything stand out for you reading this book, did the author offer any major thoughts on the subject.

Gonnagle.

Is "The Varieties of Religious Experience" by the other James (William) your kind of book too?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Gonners

To be laconic: bollocks.
Some here are truly concerned about the  omnipresence of suffering, and all of us have suffered to a greater or lesser extent. And many think that intellectual arguments are a way to resolve some of this, rather than just saying 'goddidit'  (of course some say that we need a devil as well for the full explanation)
Of course, some of us "come out from the same door wherein I went" (Omar Khayyam). I felt a bit like that after ploughing through almost all the works of Nietzsche in my twenties. *
However, there are casualties on the true believers side too (ad_orientem here is one such). Such people realise, like A.N. Wilson, that the search for God is a wild goose chase.

P.S. if you mean 'agnostic' in the original Huxley sense of "Humans have no knowledge except of phenomena", then I agree with you.
If you mean non-believers should be saying simply "I don't know" - well that's not any kind of philosophy to live by.

*After that I ended up as a sort of theist. Not any more.

Dear Dickie,

Did I touch a nerve old boy👍Good!

Now once you have practiced your breathing exercises and calmed down, could I ask politely if you could flesh this out a bit more for me, the  omnipresence of suffering,


that the search for God is a wild goose chase. Is he/she/it hiding somewhere, sorry bewildered by this!

Agnostic, It's a position of uncertainty or neutrality about the existence of a supreme being.
Yes that will do.

Gonnagle.

[Gonnagle]

Is "The Varieties of Religious Experience" by the other James (William) your kind of book too?

Dear Dickie,

You are now my beshtest friend ( yes I am very fickle )

This guy sounds good, very good.

"The Varieties of Religious Experience" by William James argues that individual religious experiences, not institutionalized religions, are the core of religious life. James explores the psychological nature of religious experiences, emphasizing their personal and subjective nature. He categorizes these experiences into various types, including healthy-mindedness, the sick soul, and mysticism, highlighting the diversity of human religious experiences.
Key Concepts and Arguments:
Emphasis on Individual Experience:
James prioritizes the personal and subjective experiences of individuals as the foundation of religious life, rather than the doctrines or rituals of established religions.
Psychological Analysis:
He employs a psychological lens to examine religious experiences, analyzing their emotional, cognitive, and behavioral aspects.
Categorization of Religious Experiences:
James categorizes religious experiences into various types, including:
Healthy-mindedness: A positive and optimistic outlook on life, often characterized by a sense of harmony and well-being.
The sick soul: Experiences of anxiety, guilt, and a sense of alienation from oneself or the world.
Mysticism: Experiences of unity with the divine, often characterized by a feeling of ineffability, transience, and passivity.
Pragmatic Approach:
James's philosophy of pragmatism influences his analysis, suggesting that the validity of a religious experience is determined by its practical effects on the individual's life.
Focus on the "Unseen Order":
James argues that religion is ultimately about a belief in an unseen, higher reality and the relationship individuals have with it.
Importance of Religious Experience:
James emphasizes the importance of religious experiences as evidence for the truth of religious beliefs and the value of personal faith.
In essence, "The Varieties of Religious Experience" presents a psychological and philosophical analysis of religious experience, arguing that individual experiences are the primary source of religious meaning and that these experiences can be diverse and personal, not confined to institutionalized forms of religion.



Gonnagle.

[Gordon]

.
Importance of Religious Experience:
James emphasizes the importance of religious experiences as evidence for the truth of religious beliefs and the value of personal faith.

That sounds wholly subjective - the corollary being that if you haven't had a 'religious experience' then the claims of theism aren't true, and theistic personal faith is of no real value (other than to the person themselves).

Even if you have what you regard as a 'religious experience' it is so inherently subjective to be of any general value.

[ekim]

Even if you have what you regard as a 'religious experience' it is so inherently subjective to be of any general value.

This may be why 'mystics' focused more upon introducing methods to evoke those subjective experiences which they saw as valuable to all, like love, joy, bliss, heaven, paradise.  The word 'religion' I believe, meant 'rebind' and so if there was a permanent unity with that inner 'state'  then actions which followed might be of general value.  The word 'religion' has become institutionalised and those institutions have led to disunity and mental distraction.

[Enki]

Hi Gonners,

It was a long time ago that I actually read it although, like many books in my library, I use it for reference at times. I think the idea of the importance of the magical and the supernatural for religions generally was one idea that came through. Also, the idea that religions were a unifying and controlling force for the group involved was another.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That sounds wholly subjective - the corollary being that if you haven't had a 'religious experience' then the claims of theism aren't true, and theistic personal faith is of no real value (other than to the person themselves).

Even if you have what you regard as a 'religious experience' it is so inherently subjective to be of any general value.

But Gordon. Value is subjective so following your logic any view you have on what's of general value cannot have general value.

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

There is nothing called a 'religious' experience. There are spiritual experiences....possibly induced by religious means. These experiences are secular and common to all humans across the world.

Whether a person experiences the presence of Jesus, Krishna or Allah or whatever....the experience is the same. Only the interpretation is different because it is based on one cultural background.

There are clear methods and techniques prescribed in Yogic science to induce such spiritual experiences.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Hi everyone,

There is nothing called a 'religious' experience. There are spiritual experiences....possibly induced by religious means. These experiences are secular and common to all humans across the world.

Whether a person experiences the presence of Jesus, Krishna or Allah or whatever....the experience is the same. Only the interpretation is different because it is based on one cultural background.

There are clear methods and techniques prescribed in Yogic science to induce such spiritual experiences.

I wonder though about spiritual experiences that happen to people without the entertaining ability to scratch the back of their ear with their big toe.

There is a mountain of stuff say, on how some Charismatic Christian experiences are NOT the same as Kundalini, for example.

[Gordon]

But Gordon. Value is subjective so following your logic any view you have on what's of general value cannot have general value.

Not my logic: I was responding to this quote posted by Gonners which mentioned value.

James emphasizes the importance of religious experiences as evidence for the truth of religious beliefs and the value of personal faith.

However, I would agree that 'value' as applied to religious faith is subjective, since if you don't have this 'faith' then it is of no personal value.

[Sriram]

I wonder though about spiritual experiences that happen to people without the entertaining ability to scratch the back of their ear with their big toe.

There is a mountain of stuff say, on how some Charismatic Christian experiences are NOT the same as Kundalini, for example.

You are confusing Yoga with postures (asanas). Kundalini is a very specific experience that not every aspirant has. I am sure some christian aspirants have kundallni experience as well but have not called it as such.

Experiences are not specific or peculiar to Hindus or Christians or anyone else.

It is like cuisine that is different in different parts of the world but the ingredients are more or less the same and the process of digestion is also the same.

[Gonnagle]

You are confusing Yoga with postures (asanas). Kundalini is a very specific experience that not every aspirant has. I am sure some christian aspirants have kundallni experience as well but have not called it as such.

Experiences are not specific or peculiar to Hindus or Christians or anyone else.

It is like cuisine that is different in different parts of the world but the ingredients are more or less the same and the process of digestion is also the same.

Dear Sriram,

Oh my two favourite pastimes, talking about Meditation and beating the God dodgers over the head with a feather duster

Spiritual awakening, I think I grasp what you are trying to say, spiritual awakening is the same in any religion, yes/no?

And that is a very good question, is Christian awakening the same as Islam/Hindu/Sikh/Buddhist awakening, for me, personally I think it is ( the God dodgers will be all at sea with this, just chemicals in the brain Gonners oh what a cold world they live in ) anyway thank you for mentioning Kundalini or was it old Vlad, that man is such a Christian he really should get out more.

Gonnagle.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You are confusing Yoga with postures (asanas). Kundalini is a very specific experience that not every aspirant has. I am sure some christian aspirants have kundallni experience as well but have not called it as such.

You did mention though, techniques for achieving states.So one cannot then exclude drug taking from that scheme of things. I am talking about the spontaneous and uncalled for experience in other words “The gift of God” or charism. Spiritual experience by technique alone leads to status and master ship levels, things dangerously nourishing to the ego, in my opinion.
I’m sure people of different faiths do come across Kundalini in their spiritual ride as well as other experiences found in other faiths and my advice to everyone would be be careful out there...as below, so above and all that.

It is like cuisine that is different in different parts of the world but the ingredients are more or less the same and the process of digestion is also the same.

I think that idea merits expansion by you.

[Gonnagle]

You did mention though, techniques for achieving states.So one cannot then exclude drug taking from that scheme of things. I am talking about the spontaneous and uncalled for experience in other words “The gift of God” or charism. Spiritual experience by technique alone leads to status and master ship levels, things dangerously nourishing to the ego, in my opinion.
I’m sure people of different faiths do come across Kundalini in their spiritual ride as well as other experiences found in other faiths and my advice to everyone would be be careful out there...as below, so above and all that.
I think that idea merits expansion by you.

Dear Vlad, May Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you✝️

No please lets exclude drugs Ya numpty, that is a very artificial experience, so no more, thank you.

Now great man who talks in parables ( aye you Valdelious ) lets talk about Kundalini or techniques as you call them, our manual the Holy Bible is awash with meditating on the word of God, a joining, a way of understanding his words, be calm be still and know that I am God.

But I also understand what you are talking about, the sudden rush, or the quiet moment when you know you are in his presence, tis a joy  ✝️ but the practice of Kundalini or meditation is a simple way of being in a state to fully appreciate his word, and please let us not forget the early Christian Monks who took themselves out into the desert and that was all they did, meditated on his word.

Peace be with you✝️

Gonnagle.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Dear Vlad, May Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you✝️

No please lets exclude drugs Ya numpty, that is a very artificial experience, so no more, thank you.

Sometimes, Mr G, I don’t  think you get me at all. Unfortunately Getting experience by chemical means IS a technique and it underlines the DANGERS of technique
I’m Not against meditation or contemplation.

Now great man who talks in parables ( aye you Valdelious ) lets talk about Kundalini or techniques as you call them, our manual the Holy Bible is awash with meditating on the word of God, a joining, a way of understanding his words, be calm be still and know that I am God.

But I also understand what you are talking about, the sudden rush, or the quiet moment when you know you are in his presence, tis a joy  ✝️ but the practice of Kundalini or meditation is a simple way of being in a state to fully appreciate his word, and please let us not forget the early Christian Monks who took themselves out into the desert and that was all they did, meditated on his word.

Peace be with you✝️

Gonnagle.

[Gonnagle]

Sometimes, Mr G, I don’t  think you get me at all. Unfortunately Getting experience by chemical means IS a technique and it underlines the DANGERS of technique
I’m Not against meditation or contemplation.

Dear Vlad,

Correct, but "sometimes"
And part of your reply should have been "And also with you"

Gonnagle.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Dear Vlad,

Correct, but "sometimes"
And part of your reply should have been "And also with you"

Gonnagle.

of course it should.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Not my logic: I was responding to this quote posted by Gonners which mentioned value.

However, I would agree that 'value' as applied to religious faith is subjective, since if you don't have this 'faith' then it is of no personal value.

Would the same apply to morals - also subjective - if you don't hold a particular moral, belief, the moral belief is of no personal value?

[Gordon]

Would the same apply to morals - also subjective - if you don't hold a particular moral, belief, the moral belief is of no personal value?

I'd agree with that - morality is subjective: it's what subsets of people think, is not uniform and the zeitgeist doesn't stand still.

I might recognise that different moral viewpoints can be held whether or not I agree with them. Thus I can note that some may view same-sex marriage or contraception as being immoral, though I don't agree with them.

[Gonnagle]

I'd agree with that - morality is subjective: it's what subsets of people think, is not uniform and the zeitgeist doesn't stand still.

I might recognise that different moral viewpoints can be held whether or not I agree with them. Thus I can note that some may view same-sex marriage or contraception as being immoral, though I don't agree with them.

Dear Gordon,

Honesty: Lying or cheating is generally considered immoral.
Fairness: Treating others unfairly, like giving preferential treatment, can be seen as immoral.
Equality: Discrimination against individuals or groups is considered immoral.
Respect: Disregarding someone's rights or feelings can be seen as immoral.
Empathy: The ability to understand and share the feelings of others is a key part of morality.

Eh? Just wondering, musing, thinking ( yes sometimes it hurts, but no pain no gain )

Gonnagle.