Author Topic: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️  (Read 25864 times)

Free Willy

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #1100 on: May 08, 2025, 11:00:22 AM »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #1101 on: May 08, 2025, 03:31:27 PM »
The New Atheists foray into education

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeastern_University_%E2%80%93_London
Blimey - you are completely obsessed with these folk aren't you. For information the New College of the Humanities (as it was originally called) wasn't set up as some kind of hotbed of atheism but to mimic the liberal arts degrees seen in many US universities. They've been somewhat overtaken since as UCL and others have started similar programmes.

But that was 15 years ago - currently it specialises in degree apprenticeships and a range of BSc and MSc degrees, often with a tech-focus as part of a global network with 12 other campuses in the US and Canada.

https://www.nulondon.ac.uk


Free Willy

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #1102 on: May 08, 2025, 04:15:53 PM »
Blimey - you are completely obsessed with these folk aren't you. For information the New College of the Humanities (as it was originally called) wasn't set up as some kind of hotbed of atheism
Given the size of the course fees I'm inclined to agree with you
Quote
,but to mimic the liberal arts degrees seen in many US universities.
Of course it was although many of the names are those of New atheist celebrities.
Quote
But that was 15 years ago
Which makes the course fees Grayling was charging more eye watering . As I recall there was disappointment over the number of lectures celebrities gave
Quote
currently it specialises in degree apprenticeships and a range of8 BSc and MSc degrees, often with a tech-focus as part of a global network with 12 other campuses in the US and Canada.

https://www.nulondon.ac.uk
The statistic I'd want to know is what the original proprietors got for the new college.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2025, 04:18:24 PM by Walt Zingmatilder »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #1103 on: May 08, 2025, 04:51:22 PM »
Given the size of the course fees I'm inclined to agree with you Of course it was although many of the names are those of New atheist celebrities. Which makes the course fees Grayling was charging more eye watering . As I recall there was disappointment over the number of lectures celebrities gave  The statistic I'd want to know is what the original proprietors got for the new college.
No idea what you are going on about. The course fees seem pretty standard to me.

Just compared their Computer Science BSc course fees with ours (as a reasonable comparison) - home fees are identical (as you'd expect as there is a maximum that can be charged). Their overseas fees are a little lower than ours. Fees for Business are identical to ours.

So you are just making stuff up as usual.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #1104 on: May 08, 2025, 06:18:56 PM »
Dear Prof,

Oh nice body swerve ( and I am actually set upon for using the term God Dodgers ) so let me remind you again, the argument is not ethics it is education, but you have already answered that in this post, ragged schools, but this type of establishment goes back hundreds of years, and everyone of these establishment's offered some kind of education.

I probably could go back to the very early days of Christianity, but learning and education played a big part in the formation of Christianity, nice try at the nutmeg Prof, but big fail, stick to the argument, how does education make you poor.

Gonnagle.
Interesting that you seem only to want to focus on the last couple of hundred years, while christian societies have been going for 2000 years, during most of which they have attempted to control and limit education.

The reality is that christian churches have only really been interested in education when and where they can control was is taught and what is learned. And for most of those 2000 years they have wanted to limit 'education' to religious instruction - which is a million miles away from proper education.

And even in the past couple of hundred years the history of education in the UK has been one of churches wanting control over what is taught (and over the past 150 years) for others to pay for it. So the churches (e.g. CofE and RCC) have typically been dead set against a broad and universal secular education, but fought tooth and nail for educational establishments to be run by them, with control over curriculum but with increasingly attempts to get tax payer grant funding for more and more of the provision - through to the current situation where church-controlled faith schools are effectively 100% funded not by the church, but from tax payers. Time and again the churches tried to block attempts to broaden educational provision where it meant that they lost control.

Some really interesting reading in this series of articles.

https://www.education-uk.org/history/index.html

Gonnagle

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #1105 on: May 08, 2025, 07:40:42 PM »
Interesting that you seem only to want to focus on the last couple of hundred years, while christian societies have been going for 2000 years, during most of which they have attempted to control and limit education.

The reality is that christian churches have only really been interested in education when and where they can control was is taught and what is learned. And for most of those 2000 years they have wanted to limit 'education' to religious instruction - which is a million miles away from proper education.

And even in the past couple of hundred years the history of education in the UK has been one of churches wanting control over what is taught (and over the past 150 years) for others to pay for it. So the churches (e.g. CofE and RCC) have typically been dead set against a broad and universal secular education, but fought tooth and nail for educational establishments to be run by them, with control over curriculum but with increasingly attempts to get tax payer grant funding for more and more of the provision - through to the current situation where church-controlled faith schools are effectively 100% funded not by the church, but from tax payers. Time and again the churches tried to block attempts to broaden educational provision where it meant that they lost control.

Some really interesting reading in this series of articles.

https://www.education-uk.org/history/index.html

Dear Prof,

Well Prof I think our gentle debate is over, not only have you proven my point with your link it has also been a education for me to discover just how much Christianity has impacted on the education of this little island of ours.

Instead of as you put it "telling the masses to accept being grindingly poor" Christianity was at the forefront of education.

To end Professor, it is not very Christian to feel smug, but as I keep telling anyone who will listen, I am also very human ;)

Gonnagle.
For the sake of my sanity I will now endeavour to aid Atheists in their thinking not do their thinking for them✝️✝️✝️

Free Willy

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #1106 on: May 08, 2025, 10:04:46 PM »
No idea what you are going on about. The course fees seem pretty standard to me.

Just compared their Computer Science BSc course fees with ours (as a reasonable comparison) - home fees are identical (as you'd expect as there is a maximum that can be charged). Their overseas fees are a little lower than ours. Fees for Business are identical to ours.

So you are just making stuff up as usual.
I think their courses were £18000 a year in 2011. What were yours.
It's new atheist heritage seems not to figure that prominently.

I think you need to explain how the founding of such a higher fees some may argue social elitist university set up by a group composed of many  New Atheists headed by a prominent public atheist counters grinding poverty as you put it.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2025, 08:44:21 AM by Walt Zingmatilder »

Free Willy

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #1107 on: May 08, 2025, 10:12:51 PM »
More on the new atheist foray into education

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2013/jan/19/new-college-of-humanities-free-school

They were looking at moving into secondary education

Free Willy

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« Last Edit: May 09, 2025, 08:03:04 AM by Walt Zingmatilder »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #1109 on: May 09, 2025, 09:28:32 AM »
I think their courses were £18000 a year in 2011. What were yours.
It's new atheist heritage seems not to figure that prominently.

I think you need to explain how the founding of such a higher fees some may argue social elitist university set up by a group composed of many  New Atheists headed by a prominent public atheist counters grinding poverty as you put it.
You do understand that the quoted £18k a year is just the so-called unregulated fees, payable for those ineligible for student finance. So home students who are eligible for student loans will have paid £9k in 2012 (the year they actually opened) at NCH, which is exactly the same as home students at my university back in 2012 and the same as virtually all other universities across the country, given that virtually all maxed out on the £9k tuition fee cap.

On unregulated fees - i.e. overseas student fees, ours were £14,500 in 2012, so a little lower than NHC. But as I've indicated ours have risen faster than theirs - so our Comp Sci BSc now has overseas fees of £29,995 while theirs are £27,450.

So I have no idea what your point is.

And by the way - did I support the concept of NCH when it started - no I didn't. I thought it was a nuts idea. But then I also don't agree with a range of other similar 'micr-institutions', e.g. TEDI-London and DIET and all for similar reasons. You on the other hand solely single out NCH for criticism - what are your views on TEDI-London, DIET etc Vlad. Presumably you have views - otherwise it looks as if your criticism of NCH is purely based on your obsession with a few individual academics.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #1110 on: May 09, 2025, 09:36:10 AM »
More on the new atheist foray into education

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2013/jan/19/new-college-of-humanities-free-school

They were looking at moving into secondary education
Again - so what.

That article is from 2013 when Universities, all Universities, were being actively encouraged by government to found Free Schools, to take over and run Academy trusts etc. So they were just responding to a push from government. Again this isn't really any different to my university - we run two academy trust chains, comprising both primary and secondary schools.

There were some schemes proposed around the time which couldn't be established without the key involvement of a university - including the bonkers University Technical Colleges, which were heavily promoted by the government at the time and championed by Ron Dearing, Keneth Baker and Prince Andrew.

But then you won't have a clue about all this as you have no idea how universities operate ... unlike me.

And laying my cards on the table, I did not agree with the Free Schools programme, I was and continue to be in favour of the notion of Academy Trusts, but didn't support the multi-academisation programme where all single academies were expected to merge (or be taken over) to form large multi-academy trusts.

Free Willy

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #1111 on: May 09, 2025, 09:50:18 AM »
Again - so what.

That article is from 2013 when Universities, all Universities, were being actively encouraged by government to found Free Schools, to take over and run Academy trusts etc. So they were just responding to a push from government. Again this isn't really any different to my university - we run two academy trust chains, comprising both primary and secondary schools.

There were some schemes proposed around the time which couldn't be established without the key involvement of a university - including the bonkers University Technical Colleges, which were heavily promoted by the government at the time and championed by Ron Dearing, Keneth Baker and Prince Andrew.

But then you won't have a clue about all this as you have no idea how universities operate ... unlike me.

And laying my cards on the table, I did not agree with the Free Schools programme, I was and continue to be in favour of the notion of Academy Trusts, but didn't support the multi-academisation programme where all single academies were expected to merge (or be taken over) to form large multi-academy trusts.
Given the number of prominent and campaigning atheists on the NCH slate it's hard to argue that NCH was not a new atheist gig. We can even add Lawrence Krauss in the mix.

The free school is then the equivalent of a faith group setting up a school.

You therefore have to be against Grayling trying to set up a school or approve of his right....and other belief oriented groups
to do so.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #1112 on: May 09, 2025, 10:17:00 AM »
Given the number of prominent and campaigning atheists on the NCH slate it's hard to argue that NCH was not a new atheist gig. We can even add Lawrence Krauss in the mix.

The free school is then the equivalent of a faith group setting up a school.

You therefore have to be against Grayling trying to set up a school or approve of his right....and other belief oriented groups
to do so.
Which bit of 'I did not agree with the Free Schools programme' have you failed to understand.

So I do not agree with NCH establishing a free school (do you have any evidence that this actually happened rather than being just an idea), I do not agree with Toby Young establishing free schools, I do not agree with faith groups establishing free schools. Why, because I don't agree with the concept of free schools, full stop.

But on your broader point - where is you evidence that were this school to have been established that it would have a specific defined 'atheist' ethos, akin to a 'faith' ethos in faith schools. The article is clear that the school would have specialised in the humanities (which would make sense as the NCH also originally specialised in this area). So no Vlad, were this school to have been established it would not have been the equivalent of a faith school.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #1113 on: May 09, 2025, 10:44:43 AM »
Dear Prof,

Well Prof I think our gentle debate is over, not only have you proven my point with your link it has also been a education for me to discover just how much Christianity has impacted on the education of this little island of ours.

Instead of as you put it "telling the masses to accept being grindingly poor" Christianity was at the forefront of education.

To end Professor, it is not very Christian to feel smug, but as I keep telling anyone who will listen, I am also very human ;)

Gonnagle.
I don't think you can have read the articles very carefully, which is understandable as there are 20 rather long and detailed chapters.

Yet with 20 chapters the first covers the entire period from Roman occupation of Britain through to 1500 and can effectively be summarised as follows:

1. The Romans had schools in Britain - e.g. 'And it seems reasonable to assume that the country eventually had a three-tier system of education similar to that of other Roman provinces: 'elementary learning (reading, writing, and arithmetic), grammar (correct composition and the study of literary texts), and rhetoric (the theory and practice of oratory)''

2. The Romans left and education and schools vanished for centuries. 'Various gangs of Anglo-Saxon invaders showed no interest in preserving Roman civilisation and before long all that remained were the roads and monuments: 'whatever other institutions of Britain, if any, survived its conversion into England, churches and schools did not''

3. from about 700 education was established, but was pretty well exclusively for the training or clergy. 'Most of the schools of the period, then, were connected with monasteries and cathedrals, and most of their pupils went on to become priests, monks or nuns.'

4. By 1500 education was still extremely limited - effectively training of clergy and some other professions (e.g. lawyers, but the was linked to church law) and a tiny elite had educational opportunities. There was no proper education (rather than imparting skills) for the vast majority.

Why do I focus on this period - well because it represents about three quarters of the history of christian societies and the time when christianity was most powerful in Britain. So if these christian societies claimed to prioritise education they are either lying or were really, really shit at delivering on their priorities as there was effectively no education for virtually everyone.

There is a reason that the period from the Romans leaving to about 1500 is called the Dark Ages (characterised it as marked by economic, intellectual, and cultural decline).

Thereafter the history is one of fluctuating dominance of power by the church and where the church is most dominant education and intellectualism decline and when secular society gains greater prominence (e.g. Age of Enlightenment and over the past 150 years) education and intellectualism improve.

If you actually read the chapters on more recent history you will see an ongoing theme - churches want to control education, what is taught and what is learned (but latterly was to be paid to do so but fight tooth and nail to retain absolute control). Time and again the churches opposed and often completely blocked proposals to establish networks of secular schools that would have provided education to a much wider population.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2025, 10:52:25 AM by ProfessorDavey »

Free Willy

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #1114 on: May 09, 2025, 10:58:51 AM »
Which bit of 'I did not agree with the Free Schools programme' have you failed to understand.

So I do not agree with NCH establishing a free school (do you have any evidence that this actually happened rather than being just an idea), I do not agree with Toby Young establishing free schools, I do not agree with faith groups establishing free schools. Why, because I don't agree with the concept of free schools, full stop.

But on your broader point - where is you evidence that were this school to have been established that it would have a specific defined 'atheist' ethos, akin to a 'faith' ethos in faith schools. The article is clear that the school would have specialised in the humanities (which would make sense as the NCH also originally specialised in this area). So no Vlad, were this school to have been established it would not have been the equivalent of a faith school.
You are having to argue that an institution set up by celebrity atheists, promoting them as educators ar tertiary and secondary levels, they intended to put Dawkins et al before the free school , is NOT an atheist establishment.

I know the project initially failed (but the intent was there) with Grayling stating they were unable to find suitable premises.

IMV a new atheist freeschool is fine, opposing freeschools is fine. What isn't so fine is pleading that a project instigated by prominent new atheists has nothing to do with new atheism.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2025, 11:04:02 AM by Walt Zingmatilder »

Free Willy

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #1115 on: May 09, 2025, 11:08:15 AM »
I don't think you can have read the articles very carefully, which is understandable as there are 20 rather long and detailed chapters.

Yet with 20 chapters the first covers the entire period from Roman occupation of Britain through to 1500 and can effectively be summarised as follows:

1. The Romans had schools in Britain - e.g. 'And it seems reasonable to assume that the country eventually had a three-tier system of education similar to that of other Roman provinces: 'elementary learning (reading, writing, and arithmetic), grammar (correct composition and the study of literary texts), and rhetoric (the theory and practice of oratory)''

2. The Romans left and education and schools vanished for centuries. 'Various gangs of Anglo-Saxon invaders showed no interest in preserving Roman civilisation and before long all that remained were the roads and monuments: 'whatever other institutions of Britain, if any, survived its conversion into England, churches and schools did not''

3. from about 700 education was established, but was pretty well exclusively for the training or clergy. 'Most of the schools of the period, then, were connected with monasteries and cathedrals, and most of their pupils went on to become priests, monks or nuns.'

4. By 1500 education was still extremely limited - effectively training of clergy and some other professions (e.g. lawyers, but the was linked to church law) and a tiny elite had educational opportunities. There was no proper education (rather than imparting skills) for the vast majority.

Why do I focus on this period - well because it represents about three quarters of the history of christian societies and the time when christianity was most powerful in Britain. So if these christian societies claimed to prioritise education they are either lying or were really, really shit at delivering on their priorities as there was effectively no education for virtually everyone.

There is a reason that the period from the Romans leaving to about 1500 is called the Dark Ages (characterised it as marked by economic, intellectual, and cultural decline).

Thereafter the history is one of fluctuating dominance of power by the church and where the church is most dominant education and intellectualism decline and when secular society gains greater prominence (e.g. Age of Enlightenment and over the past 150 years) education and intellectualism improve.

If you actually read the chapters on more recent history you will see an ongoing theme - churches want to control education, what is taught and what is learned (but latterly was to be paid to do so but fight tooth and nail to retain absolute control). Time and again the churches opposed and often completely blocked proposals to establish networks of secular schools that would have provided education to a much wider population.
Can you name one Roman educational establishment in existence today? Even one that is under new management.
There are of course many, many that were started by the churches and Christians...and indeed one apparently by celebrity atheists.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #1116 on: May 09, 2025, 11:11:58 AM »
You are having to argue that in institution set up by celebrity atheists, promoting them as educators ar tertiary and secondary levels, they intended to put Dawkins et al before the free school , is NOT an atheist establishment.
It would only be an atheist establishment (akin to a faith school) if the DfE provided formal approval for an 'Atheist' ethos in the manner that faith schools have a DfE approved 'Faith' ethos. There is no evidence that the proposed NCH free school requested this from DfE - rather they requested to establish a free school with a humanities specialism.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #1117 on: May 09, 2025, 11:15:28 AM »
Can you name one Roman educational establishment in existence today? Even one that is under new management.
Oh dear - sounds like a case of survivorship bias.

But actually our education system today is probably closer to the models of education in ancient Greece and Rome than it is to christian 'education' from the period after the romans left britain.

Free Willy

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #1118 on: May 09, 2025, 12:49:51 PM »
Oh dear - sounds like a case of survivorship bias.

But actually our education system today is probably closer to the models of education in ancient Greece and Rome than it is to christian 'education' from the period after the romans left britain.
No not a case of survivorship bias but a steer away from your misleading notion that the Romans started our education system and ignoring the people who founded what we have today. Following your logic, the Romans are responsible for the motorway system.

Greco Roman models are like Greco Roman philosophies.They are going to be reinvented, discovered etc for eternity.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Atheism, please note the capitalisation❤️
« Reply #1119 on: May 09, 2025, 01:45:55 PM »
No not a case of survivorship bias but a steer away from your misleading notion that the Romans started our education system ...
But I never said that.

What I said was that our current educational approach - (broad curriculum, secular in nature, run under the auspices of civic society, not necessarily focussed on training for a specific vocation/profession) is rather closer to the model of education in ancient greece and rome, compared to the model within christian societies until fairly recently, which was effectively a very narrow curriculum, run by religious orders, which was predominantly focussed on vocation training (largely clergy and other religious orders and a couple of other professions).
« Last Edit: May 09, 2025, 01:48:57 PM by ProfessorDavey »